LS II's - Not sounding as good as I thought

[PeteVoxx]

4 minutes ago, Marvel said:

 

Of course they would sound bad if you didn't connect the bass cabs. Why would you even do that if you weren't biamping or going active?

I did it as a TEST to isolate the HF cabs.  Process of elimination.  And no, they shouldn't sound "bad" - just lacking in the low end without the LF cabs connected.  Per the specs, I would only lose from 400Hz and lower (to 51Hz).  But hey, thanks for questioning why I did what I did

 

[LarryC]

1 hour ago, PeteVoxx said:

I did it as a TEST to isolate the HF cabs.  Process of elimination.  And no, they shouldn't sound "bad" - just lacking in the low end without the LF cabs connected.  Per the specs, I would only lose from 400Hz and lower (to 51Hz).  But hey, thanks for questioning why I did what I did

 

Well, good grief!  The LS II is a very fine, coherent, linear-sounding speaker when properly hooked up.  Removing the upper sections will make them sound pretty inadequate, for sure!

 

"Only 400 and lower" takes most of the fundamentals and many of the lower overtones of the music out of the equation.  Consider this, and try to imagine it in your mind's ear:  400 Hz is just one note below the 440-Hz "A" that a symphony orchestra tunes to.  Try to imagine what would happen if the violins couldn't play the notes on their lower 2 strings, or the cellos couldn't play full notes on any of their lower strings until the fingers are shifted well up on the fingerboards.  It's more complicated than that, of course, what with phasing in up or down because of the crossovers, and the fact that crossovers decreasingly extend the mid-range down into the bass region, etc.  But you should realize that you are cutting the guts and body out of MANY treble musical tones when the tops are disconnected.

 

You should realize that both the numerical frequencies and the numerical differences between them get smaller and smaller as you go down the range.  400 Hz to 440 Hz is the same interval as 8000 Hz to 8800 Hz even though the numbers are a lot bigger.

[PeteVoxx]

6 minutes ago, LarryC said:

Well, good grief!  The LS II is a very fine, coherent, linear-sounding speaker when properly hooked up.  Removing the upper sections will make them sound pretty inadequate, for sure!

 

"Only 400 and lower" takes most of the fundamentals and many of the lower overtones of the music out of the equation.  Consider this, and try to imagine it in your mind's ear:  400 Hz is just one note below the 440-Hz "A" that a symphony orchestra tunes to.  Try to imagine what would happen if the violins couldn't play the notes on their lower 2 strings, or the cellos couldn't play full notes on any of their lower strings until the fingers are shifted well up on the fingerboards.  It's more complicated than that, of course, what with phasing in up or down because of the crossovers, and the fact that crossovers decreasingly extend the mid-range down into the bass region, etc.  But you should realize that you are cutting the guts and body out of MANY treble musical tones when the tops are disconnected.

 

You should realize that both the numerical frequencies and the numerical differences between them get smaller and smaller as you go down the range.  400 Hz to 440 Hz is the same interval as 8000 Hz to 8800 Hz even though the numbers are a lot bigger.

Thanks for your input, Larry.  I understand they wouldn't sound "good" by any stretch with the bass cabs disconnected, but these sound downright horrendous.  The sound coming from the HF cabs/top hats literally sound like a mono PA speaker.  I don't know how else to describe it.  Now, once the bass cabs are connected, the sound definitely "improves" but something is still terribly wrong with the overall tonal quality.  As another example, my Sonos Play5 sounds way more musical.

[USNRET]

I realize that you don't want to take things apart more than once and are awaiting the new crossovers BUT if you take it apart, change crossovers and then perhaps find wiring you question an change that you won't know what fixed it (wiring or xover). I have read the entire thread and I assume both speakers sound the same individually so is your plan to replace one xover and compare?

[PeteVoxx]

2 minutes ago, USNRET said:

I realize that you don't want to take things apart more than once and are awaiting the new crossovers BUT if you take it apart, change crossovers and then perhaps find wiring you question an change that you won't know what fixed it (wiring or xover). I have read the entire thread and I assume both speakers sound the same individually so is your plan to replace one xover and compare?

When I take them apart upon the arrival of the new networks, I will carefully observe the physical connections prior to removal.  And yes, they both sound equally lacking in the mid & HF range.  I will be doing one at a time to compare.  Thanks!

[CECAA850]

2 minutes ago, PeteVoxx said:

When I take them apart upon the arrival of the new networks, I will carefully observe the physical connections prior to removal.  And yes, they both sound equally lacking in the mid & HF range.  I will be doing one at a time to compare.  Thanks!

That's where my money would lie as well.  Almost has to be an out of phase issue somewhere.

 

Have you played them  only one at a time?

[USNRET]

2 minutes ago, PeteVoxx said:

I will carefully observe the physical connections prior to removal

Hopefully the existing are marked correctly. Not being familiar with the L IIs can you see the network to get a photo of it now so other owners can check against theirs?

[PeteVoxx]

2 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

That's where my money would lie as well.  Almost has to be an out of phase issue somewhere.

 

Have you played them  only one at a time?

Yes, and the woofer is definitely in-phase as there is a marked increase in bass response/output when balance is shifted to both playing simultaneously.

[PeteVoxx]

3 minutes ago, USNRET said:

Hopefully the existing are marked correctly. Not being familiar with the L IIs can you see the network to get a photo of it now so other owners can check against theirs?

The networks are enclosed within the HF cab.  The LS II's have a back wall (sort of) with a hole for the compression driver of the mid horn to peek out of...

[USNRET]

^^ Got'cha, thanks for the visual. Hey, just me, but I would have already removed that back panel to take a look see. Might be an easy fix.

[CECAA850]

1 minute ago, USNRET said:

^^ Got'cha, thanks for the visual. Hey, just me, but I would have already removed that back panel to take a look see. Might be an easy fix.

This^^^^^^^

[PeteVoxx]

If I'm feeling daring when I get home this evening, I may just pop that panel off and "see what I see" - stay tuned

 

[USNRET]

1 minute ago, PeteVoxx said:

If I'm feeling daring when I get home this evening, I may just pop that panel off and "see what I see" - stay tuned

 

One way or another, it's gonna come off so 8 screws....com'n man!  From my view (never having done it to L IIs) it appears that the 6 screws holding the terminal board on would unscrew then pull twist / turn to push terminal board back into the HF bin. Then remove back panel. I did NOT sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night!

[pbphoto]

Disconnect the speaker from the amp.  Unhook the LF bin first, then spin the top hat around for easy access.  Unscrew the wood screws around the perimeter and then use the terminals to slowly pull/tip the whole board outwards towards you.  You'll see where the tweeter is connected to the crossover on the "label" side of the board via push-on terminals.  Make a note of how they are connected before disconnecting them.  Then, disconnect the midrange connections from the back of the squawker driver itself - making a note of positive/negative.  Free up the LF wires and you can remove the whole board.

 

Just take your time - can't hurt anything.

[Deang]

What pbphoto and usnret said - get busy. This isn't going to fix itself. 

[jason str]

May be something wrong with the set but have you put many hours on these loudspeakers ?

 

Break in is necessary and sound only gets better over time

[Schu]

Your networks should look like these

 

They are hardwired so really there is little to be messed with except the individual speaker connections.

 

I still say it's the processing.

[USNRET]

Schu: if it was the processing why (without being changed during speaker swap) would the change be so drastic from earlier LaScala generation?

 

[babadono]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

What pbphoto and usnret said - get busy. This isn't going to fix itself. 

Take it easy, Ok Dean  This is a new member. I like having new folks around the place

[PeteVoxx]

Thanks for all the info and encouragement, folks!  Unfortunately though, all is hooked up as it should be.  RE: time played; somewhere around 60-70 hours at moderate volume.  There was no change.