Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[MEH Synergy]

4 minutes ago, Dave A said:

What did you say I can't hear you?  🤣

Yeah you heard what dean said.  He is absolutely correct haha 

[joessportster]

On 12/18/2018 at 4:50 PM, ODS123 said:

 

Well, that's one way of looking at it.  But you can bet that each of these 38 had the same extreme confidence about their ability to distinguish differences as people in this forum.  

 

 

They did distinguish differences and chose 1 they perceived to sound better based on THERE OWN SUBJECTIVE preferences which proves nothing about amp or ? A being  better or worse in any 1 of the millions of possible systems.  So your point must be people like different things. Great findings.....................Of course I have known for years I like different things than others.

[soundbound]

Although this test and all have flaws with none being perfect or us either, it may and others just prove that we all like different audio aspects and therefore as differing individuals will like different audio components be expensive, low cost, solid state, tubes, etc. No two of us are the same enjoying differently including hearing differently as all our senses differ giving us different experiences of the same event. 

 

[babadono]

Does a true ABX device even exist anymore?

I'm not talking about a software plug in that allows comparing two digital files. I'm talking about an honest to goodness piece of hardware that can switch between two amps for instance instantaneously. And only the controlling electronics knows what X is until after the test is concluded.

[jimjimbo]

Certainly any ABX test would have to be at the factory in some controlled space, and I think that's asking a bit much of the Klipsch folks and Roy.  Anything we would try to do out at Rodney's would be a waste of time I think.

[Dave A]

17 hours ago, soundbound said:

Speakers have the biggest influence on a system. Good speakers can sound good wired into a low budget systems. For another example, I recently bought a used pair of Wharfedale Emerald EM 99 MK IV speakers and wired them into an old low cost stereo receiver and was blown away by how great it sounded! I knew how important speakers are, but that really demonstrated how important to me. 

I agree. I bought an old MCM 1900 system and it was like I was right there in the train station or country fair. Best PA system ever.

[ODS123]

10 hours ago, Ski Bum said:

Someone please bring an ABX device to Hope, put your own golden ears and cherished beliefs to a real test.  A single completed pass is worth a thousand arm-chair quarterbacks.

 

 

Though I like the idea I very much doubt that Klipsch Audio Tech. is interested in hosting an exercise which could give many a newfound skepticism regarding the audibility of differences between modern amplifiers.  Remember, Klipsch relies on a network of retailers who must sell pricey amplifiers in order to survive - they can’t make it on speakers alone.  I think Klipsch would like to stay very well away from this.  

 

Indeed, I think much of hifi today would present a sizable moral dilemma for Mr. PWK himself.   As an engineer steeped in the Scientific Method he spent a career calling out BS like unsubstantiated claims made by other mfgs.  Yet, for his company to survive today, it needs a network of retailers who, by necessity, must traffic in these sorts of claims.  It's hard to imagine him visiting one of his retailers and not feeling compelled to point to his BS button when he sees expensive DACs, power conditioners, cables, power cords, and yes over-engineered pricey amps that are sold w/ unsubstantiated claims they sound better.   Again, I think he'd point to his button.
 

[soundbound]

As I kind of posted. We all like different audio. Some like a flat response, some higher than normal level bass, treble, or mids, soundstage, etc, so they’ll prefer their likings even though they may not be true representations of the original recordings or proper audio sound or set up, so these test can not be completely valid, but I still feel there is some usefulness to this discussed test and most test. I’ve learned a lot by doing some myself.

[ODS123]

1 hour ago, Dave A said:

I agree. I bought an old MCM 1900 system and it was like I was right there in the train station or country fair. Best PA system ever.

 

Exactly.  ..Then just add a subwoofer and you'll have a nicely musical speaker - it's intended use for PA systems notwithstanding.

[ODS123]

4 hours ago, Marvel said:

Behringer has been improving their products ever since they acquired Midas and Klark Teknik in 2009.

 

Bruce

Well, I suppose the Behringer being better than expected is one way of looking at it.  But what about all the other stuff ahead of the speakers?  Let's remember that system A had a $50 dvd player; System B a several thousand dollar transport/DAC combo.  System A had 15' generic thin interconnects; System B had very short and expensive interconnects.  System A a generic power cord; System B a pricey one. And so on.  ..You would think that even if the $4000 pre/ amp combo didn't sound better than the $199 Behringer, then certainly ALL the other stuff would raise System B well above A.  .  Well, that is if all that other stuff, as believed by many audiophiles,  really does significantly contribute to how a system sounds.  

[Marvel]

1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

 

Though I like the idea I very much doubt that Klipsch Audio Tech. is interested in hosting an exercise which could give many a newfound skepticism regarding the audibility of differences between modern amplifiers.  Remember, Klipsch relies on a network of retailers who must sell pricey amplifiers in order to survive - they can’t make it on speakers alone.  I think Klipsch would like to stay very well away from this.  

 

Indeed, I think much of hifi today would present a sizable moral dilemma for Mr. PWK himself.   As an engineer steeped in the Scientific Method he spent a career calling out BS like unsubstantiated claims made by other mfgs.  Yet, for his company to survive today, it needs a network of retailers who, by necessity, must traffic in these sorts of claims.  It's hard to imagine him visiting one of his retailers and not feeling compelled to point to his BS button when he sees expensive DACs, power conditioners, cables, power cords, and yes over-engineered pricey amps that are sold w/ unsubstantiated claims they sound better.   Again, I think he'd point to his button.
 

 

IIRC, they used zip cord for speaker wire in Indy. I don't think they are too worried about it.

[garyrc]

2 hours ago, ODS123 said:

It's hard to imagine him visiting one of his retailers and not feeling compelled to point to his BS button when he sees expensive DACs, power conditioners, cables, power cords, and yes over-engineered pricey amps that are sold w/ unsubstantiated claims they sound better.   Again, I think he'd point to his button.

 

 According to a sales person I talked to at The Good Guys once, PWK did just that when visiting his store.

[MEH Synergy]

3 minutes ago, garyrc said:

 

 According to a sales person I talked to at The Good Guys once, PWK did just that when visiting his store.

Wish he would have visited me when I worked there.   He could have point to his button as much as he wanted, as long as he was willing to teach. 

[Deang]

Edit:

 

Grrrr I was mad. I need to stay out of these threads!

[ACV92]

Well, considering that I'm a Tier 1 audio guy, sorry it's what I can afford, I do everything I can to eek every bit of 'brilliance' out of my low grade system that I can.  I find the low sampling pool interesting in the fact that if you increased the random sampling data, as to average music listeners, they would more than likely lean towards the lower end setup as to that is their listening experience.  It's about what you've been subjected to.  Apply any distribution that you can, with error of data, and the results will inevitably favor the masses.

 

So, my 5.5's, H II's, (2) Dayton 15" UMax flat packs, crappy INuke 3000DSP, Marantz SR-8002, laptop and Yamaha CD player sources are happy to push the less is more BS.  Those of you that have $30K + setups, can spew brand names and architecture better than you know your kids names, more power to you.  Unfortunately, you are in in the lower percentile of audio listeners.  Stand tall and proud as you will, most people won't care.  They like what they like.

 

I will never be happy with my setup.  Regardless of any dollar amount spent.  Such as anyone who's spent a buck on audio gear.  Yeah, some have 'achieved' higher levels of the audio sanctuary, but guess what, they're still looking for new gear.  I quite frankly hate the elitist attitude amongst the audio listener ranks.  My wife says that most would enjoy listening to a clock radio, which I've done as I travel a lot.  There's so much more to enjoying music than the hardware.  Many times, it's only about the experience.   

[wvu80]

15 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Anything we would try to do out at Rodney's would be a waste of time I think.

From a scientific point of view, of course you are right.  There are simply too many variables and lots of other technical problems to overcome to reach generalizeable results.

 

I would argue the testing would have more social value and the results are anecdotal.  There are many organized get-togethers that do exactly that.  In other words, it's just for general interest, and for fun.  Who doesn't like to have fun?

 

If blindfolded, can you taste the difference between Coke and 7-Up?  How about Coke and Pepsi?  It's all good. 

 

[Dave A]

7 hours ago, ODS123 said:

Exactly.  ..Then just add a subwoofer and you'll have a nicely musical speaker - it's intended use for PA systems notwithstanding.

One day when I grow up to be smug and self annointed and appointed, assured that what I think I know supercedes reality and the experience of others who really do know, I want to be just like you.

 Unlike Dean I want you to stick around. It's like the chuckle of the day. Going to pick up a bunch of KPT-456 PA speakers today. Wish you could stop in and hear what ugly black Cornwall Killer boxes would do for your self assured knowledge of all things audio pronounced loftily from the perch of audio royalty daily.

[Dave A]

8 hours ago, ODS123 said:

hough I like the idea I very much doubt that Klipsch Audio Tech. is interested in hosting an exercise which could give many a newfound skepticism regarding the audibility of differences between modern amplifiers.  Remember, Klipsch relies on a network of retailers who must sell pricey amplifiers in order to survive - they can’t make it on speakers alone.  I think Klipsch would like to stay very well away from this.  

 

Indeed, I think much of hifi today would present a sizable moral dilemma for Mr. PWK himself.   As an engineer steeped in the Scientific Method he spent a career calling out BS like unsubstantiated claims made by other mfgs.  Yet, for his company to survive today, it needs a network of retailers who, by necessity, must traffic in these sorts of claims.  It's hard to imagine him visiting one of his retailers and not feeling compelled to point to his BS button when he sees expensive DACs, power conditioners, cables, power cords, and yes over-engineered pricey amps that are sold w/ unsubstantiated claims they sound better.   Again, I think he'd point to his button.
 

HAHAHAHA, snort, heh heh heh. HA HA HA you kill me!  Audio solipsism via one man echo chamber. And you even mentioned the BS button🤣. It was almost like your mind and Paul's had melded in perfect synch and total agreement. HA HA HA HA!!!

 

 

[Dave A]

7 hours ago, Marvel said:

IIRC, they used zip cord for speaker wire in Indy. I don't think they are too worried about it.

 That is correct. 12 gage 300 feet for $90 some dollars delivered at Monoprice last week. It does not however come with the sanctimonious, I mean sanctioned approval of the High Brow Audiophile Society.

[Deang]

1 hour ago, Dave A said:

Unlike Dean I want you to stick around. It's like the chuckle of the day

I was kidding!

 

I was also out of line last night. I’d like to apologize to everyone for that.