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Wirrunna

Chief Bonehead on the AK6 K Horn

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3 hours ago, Edgar said:

 

There's all kinds of pedantic but unimportant analysis that could be performed, concerning the difference between driver offset and horn length, but I'm not going there. Really, the only important thing is that the path length is not 8 feet.

It is an EFFECTIVE 8 foot horn if you include 4 foot false corners (or natural ones) and the front face of the horn at low frequencies.

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17 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

It is with 4 foot false corners or natural ones.

 

Both physical measurements and time delay measurements fail to support that. You could argue that the room corner forms the final portion of the horn, but then there is a huge discontinuity in the contour somewhere between the five and six foot marks.

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Keep in mind that the Klipsch La Scala, Belle, Jubilee and Klipschorn bass cabinet acoustic paths are bifurcated. I don't think you can arbitrarily add the two internal path lengths together or double the length of the external wall extensions to gain a longer "effective" path. As Edgar states, the measurements don't support that.

 

You can, however, supposedly take either of the "single" mouth areas and multiply that by a factor of 8 (assuming corner loading)  to arrive at the total "effective" mouth area.  

 

Curiously, in the July 1, 1980 U.S. Patent 4,210,223, co-inventors PWK & Gary Gillum used not only a factor of 12 (instead of 😎 for a Pi/2 loading to determine the necessary mouth size, but they added both of the bifurcated mouth areas together! I'm still scratching my head over that one.

 

Lee 

                                                              

 

 

 

US4210223.pdf

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What the......? 

Previous post should read, in part, "...co-inventors PWK & Gary Gillum used not only a factor of 12 (instead of eight) for a Pi/2 loading..."

 

 

Lee

 

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  My limited experience is that horns are forgiving. I once made a pair and installed an internal panel off at one end by over 1 1/2”. Should have ruined the expansion rate.

  The two cabinets sounded and measured the same. Never tried to fix this issue. Used them happily for several years. 

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The LS isn't bifurcated...

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14 minutes ago, Schu said:

The LS isn't bifurcated...

I think you have gotten confused, the path of a LaScala splits left and right exactly after the throat opening into two distinct horns each with a path of its own they join back together as one at the mouth of the horn. That is bifurcated.

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There was an audible gasp from my Rosewood Belle when she heard she might not be bifurcated. I had to play soothing music to assuage her fears. At least she's not an orphan! 
 
Lee
 
 
 
verb
/ˈbīfərˌkāt/
  1. divide into two branches or forks.
    "just below Cairo the river bifurcates"
adjective
/bīˈfərkāt,bīˈfərkət/
  1. forked; branched.
    "a bifurcate tree"
     
     

LaScala.jpg

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9 hours ago, Edgar said:

 

Both physical measurements and time delay measurements fail to support that. You could argue that the room corner forms the final portion of the horn, but then there is a huge discontinuity in the contour somewhere between the five and six foot marks.

Probably explains the "knee" at 50 Hz., also on the Jubilee without Roy's 32 Hz. Boost.

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Tony Martin and his team of "industrial designers" (or who ever is responsible) should be horsewhipped for turning the Klipschorn's classic appearance into a bad joke. By removing the "B-style" collar separating the bass horn from the upper housing, the balance and beauty of PWK's visionary styling has been  lost in favor of .......what exactly? According to Klipsch ad copy, they "....removed the inset collar or spacer...for a cleaner aesthetic appearance." 

 

Oh, to have been a fly on the wall at that fateful design meeting in Indy! Fade up to a conference room where Tony Martin and his design team wizards are reclining in their Aeron office chairs sipping kale smoothies from the Klipsch vending service. "Hey Tony," says one of the minions wiping off his green mustache. "I know how we can save $39.45 in manufacturing costs on the K-Horn----let's eliminate that tacky collar and re-invent the Style C model! I can get us a deal on rubber feet to separate the bass horn from the top section. And, say, while we're making improvements to the K-Horn's looks, let's make it even taller by adding a four-inch ----no, make that a two-inch riser. That'll add to the WAF fer sure. Now, if you've got a minute, I've got some ideas for the Cornwall............" Fade to black.


No, what they did was revive the old Style C Klipschorn which did not have the collar. Then, rather than attaching the upper assembly flush with the bass cabinet, they are using what looks to be round rubber equipment feet as spacers. Next, they'll want to enclose the back so you can use the Klipschorn away from the corner. Oh yeah, they already did that.

 

Hey Rogelio, er Chief bonehead; how about showing us some curves of an enclosed Klipschorn cabinet several feet away from a corner compared to the proper corner location? 

 

 

 

Lee

 

 

 

new look.jpg

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  I have to comment here;

 Roy deserves complete respect. He is more committed than all of us.

 This is still a corner horn. If you want a speaker desired to operate in free space, get a La Scala and give up the last 20 Hz.

  The support (isolation) looks a lot like the rubber pucks used between the bass cabinet and top hat of my LS ii. May not be fancy, looks fine to me, and isolation may be a goal.

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13 hours ago, moray james said:

I think you have gotten confused, the path of a LaScala splits left and right exactly after the throat opening into two distinct horns each with a path of its own they join back together as one at the mouth of the horn. That is bifurcated.

 

All true, but the paths join back together in a single exit. The LS doesn't have the lobing that takes place with the Khorn, Jube, MWM and Belle.

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1 hour ago, Arkytype said:

Tony Martin and his team of "industrial designers" (or who ever is responsible) should be horsewhipped for turning the Klipschorn's classic appearance into a bad joke. By removing the "B-style" collar separating the bass horn from the upper housing, the balance and beauty of PWK's visionary styling has been  lost in favor of .......what exactly? According to Klipsch ad copy, they "....removed the inset collar or spacer...for a cleaner aesthetic appearance." 

 

Oh, to have been a fly on the wall at that fateful design meeting in Indy! Fade up to a conference room where Tony Martin and his design team wizards are reclining in their Aeron office chairs sipping kale smoothies from the Klipsch vending service. "Hey Tony," says one of the minions wiping off his green mustache. "I know how we can save $39.45 in manufacturing costs on the K-Horn----let's eliminate that tacky collar and re-invent the Style C model! I can get us a deal on rubber feet to separate the bass horn from the top section. And, say, while we're making improvements to the K-Horn's looks, let's make it even taller by adding a four-inch ----no, make that a two-inch riser. That'll add to the WAF fer sure. Now, if you've got a minute, I've got some ideas for the Cornwall............" Fade to black.


No, what they did was revive the old Style C Klipschorn which did not have the collar. Then, rather than attaching the upper assembly flush with the bass cabinet, they are using what looks to be round rubber equipment feet as spacers. Next, they'll want to enclose the back so you can use the Klipschorn away from the corner. Oh yeah, they already did that.

 

Hey Rogelio, er Chief bonehead; how about showing us some curves of an enclosed Klipschorn cabinet several feet away from a corner compared to the proper corner location? 

 

 

 

Lee

 

 

 

new look.jpg

Could you be any more disrespectful? I hope everyone at Klipsch ignores you, as they should. 

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Is it possible that the 8ft. length refers to what the length of a straight horn would have to be to reproduce the lowest Khorn frequency, and not the actual length of the Khorn’s path? 

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5 hours ago, Panelhead said:

  I have to comment here;

 Roy deserves complete respect. He is more committed than all of us.

 This is still a corner horn. If you want a speaker desired to operate in free space, get a La Scala and give up the last 20 Hz.

  The support (isolation) looks a lot like the rubber pucks used between the bass cabinet and top hat of my LS ii. May not be fancy, looks fine to me, and isolation may be a goal.

 

Exactly.  We’re on a company website, installed and supported by Klipsch, so it should be common courtesy to be respectful to any Klipsch employees who comment or participate in any way on the forum.

 

in addition, having the participation of the top engineer, who developed or co-developed many of the speakers that we enjoy every day, is very, very, rare. It’s important to appreciate this, because Roy really is an invaluable source of advice and knowledge.  Without him, there would be no JubScala, and the Jubilee would not be as good as it is.

 

 

As for the reasons for the 2-piece construction of the AK-6 Klipschorn, isolation could be one reason, and an important one, but ease of moving the speaker is also very likely.  Having the La Scala II in 2 sections is a big help, and in the case of the even taller K-horn, it would be even more of a benefit.

 

Another, possibly less important, reason to go 2-piece is that it allows the toe-in of the HF section to be different from that of the LF section, just like with the La Scala Industrial split model.  I just started experimenting with that with my JubScala IIs, and it was super simple to just turn the big 402 horns to the direction I wanted to try, and when I find the ideal direction, only then do I need to deal with shifting the heavy bass sections into the matching directions.  That really simplifies the job, which is great! It’s even possible to leave the tops and bottoms in positions of slight disagreement, since our ears are less sensitive to the directions and points of origin of bass tones.

 

So that’s 3 reasons for the 2-piece cabinets of Klipschorns and La Scala IIs.  Oh, yeah, there’s a 4th.  When putting the Jubilee tweeter assembly on an LS2, you can choose to put it directly on the bass cabinet, or leave the two cabinets together and put it on top of the HF cabinet.  You get a choice of heights, for looks and convenience, or to choose the apparent stage height of the performer(s) you’re listening to.  It’s a really ideal arrangement.

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11 hours ago, moray james said:

I think you have gotten confused, the path of a LaScala splits left and right exactly after the throat opening into two distinct horns each with a path of its own they join back together as one at the mouth of the horn. That is bifurcated.

 

The answer is kind of Yes and No.  The LS bass horn is bifurcated for most of its length, but the two sides join at the mouth to become one big horn mouth, and that’s how the mouth size would be measured or calculated.  Its in-room performance is like that of a single large horn, with no lobing issues.  Therefore, the way it’s a single, non-bifurcated, horn at both its throat and mouth would make it, in effect, a single horn in every way that matters.

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Could this extra "mystery length" be the width of the front panel where the two paths join?

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Maybe they were thinking of a Patrician IV.  Smile.

 

WMcD

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One nuance of the design video deserves some comment. The Klipschorns, when tucked into corners, look smaller than they appear straight out of the box. Emphasizing the "stance" by the riser (which protects that nice veneer from vacuum cleaners and feet) and pulling out from the corner (not my notion of proper operation, enclosed back not withstanding) makes them look bigger, more in-you-face.

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