Solid State

[AnalOg]

I know this forum is mostley dedicated to tube listening And reading all the insightful perspectives on tube listening has really heightened my curiosity. I would just like to input my experience with some new ss gear, it has been a really amazing experience in contrast to the 20 year old ss gear I retired when i got married 10 years ago.

I have a real passion for music, and lately I have felt the need to rekindle that passion that I had in my younger years. I put together a system consisting of Musical Fidelity a300 int. amp, MF a3cd player, Harmon kardon tt(left over from my old system), Klipsch RF3II, Nordost speaker cables, Harmony Audio interconnects. While the amp & cd player are used, they have minimal hours on them and look absolutely brand new. As this system is breaking in by running non stop for the past two week. Every day that I sit down to listen the sound stage is getting wider, deeper, more airy and detailed. the highs are toning done to a more natural warm sound and the lows are more controlled and smoothening out. Each day that goes by I am amazed at what I'm hearing. This by far exceeds my old system in every aspect.

With all that said, reading about tube equipment and its ability to create a more realistic (for lack of a better word) experience I cant imagine that it can get better than what I'm presently experiencing. Either the combo I have put together is giving me that tube like experience (not that I have anything to compare it to), or I'm going to be in for a pleasent surprise when I do venture into the tubes, becouse if it gets better than this I want to be there and take it all in.

thankx for reading,

Tom

[artto]

Peronally, (no offense) I think you're just "hearing" things man! There is no reason for that much difference. On the other hand, its a well known fact that electronics that have been "running" or warmed up for a while tend to sound better. My SS preamp/control center is left on all the time. So is one of the tuners, the center channel power amp & sometimes the L&R channel power amp (by accident). The tube gear I have uses some rather rare/hard to find tubes so I tend not to let them burn any longer than I have to. By the way, there is no comparision between my SS gear & my tube stuff. Tubes win hands down no questions asked.

Also this may be of interest to you & other readers. One year back in the 80's I was attending the CES (Consumer Electronics Show). They also had a special "audiophile" section of the show. Klipsch never showed at these type of things for many years. Then what do I see? Klipsch. Klipsch has a large suit at the hotel. And not only that, they are using all Mark Levenson electronics (all SS)& (all $$). The power amps were ML-2 class A 25watt monoblocks which are about the size of a large window air conditioner.

Superior results can be obtained with either SS or tubes. Although it is arguably easier to do with tubes. The nature of the beast just doesn't allow you to make as many stupid mistakes.

[Deang]

These are generalizations

Solid State:

More 'slam', the bottom sounds 'quicker', and doesn't hang around very long.

Brighter, but not necessarily in the sense of more clarity or more open. It's just 'brighter', the highs are more prevalent.

During low level listening, the midrange tends to shrink away from you, and the soundstage collapses.

The sound is more 'homogenized'. There is projection, but instruments can't be identified in their space as readily.

There is a 'filmy' quality with solid state. One doesn't really notice it all that much, until they hear a system that doesn't have it. Then, when going back -- it is very easy to hear and hard to ignore.

Tubes

The bass is fatter and warmer, and though not as tight as solid state, seems to envelope you and fill the room more. It's not like muddy bass from a bad speaker, but 'just there', hanging out with the rest of the music -- instead of stomping all over everything.

The highs don't sound 'splashy' or 'spitty'. They are not as intense, not as brittle, but instead sound softer, and smoother. Sounds in the upper treble trail away somewhat.

The midrange presence remains intact even at low levels, which I'm finding out leads to not needing to jack the volume up to get realism out of the sound. Whether at low levels, or high -- things sound pretty much the same, instead of changing up with volume. This is very hard to explain.

There is more air , or ambiance. There is the impression of more information in the soundstage. The sound seems closer to you physically, instead of just hanging out in front of the baffles.

In spite of being a warmer sound, there is more clarity. It's paradoxical. It's almost like the warmth allows things to separate out more from each other a little more. I was thinking about this today. It's like a balloon you paint dots on, and as you blow up the balloon, the dots start spreading apart from each other into their own space. Solid state that I've been exposed so far doesn't do this -- everything just seems like it's running together.

It's mostly about the midrange where most of the music is. All of this is pushed forward, without being abrasive or overbearing.

I hope this helps.

[arfz28]

Deang, very good description of tube sound.Its hard to describe but once you hear it your hooked.The bass that my k-horns and scott 299a produces just fills the room up, even at low levels of volume, my sansui g-7700 receiver just doesnt do that.The mid and highs are perfect, not in your face and way less adjatating. What gets me is you can set there for hours and never get tired of the tube sound.Deang I hope one day you will pick up a set of k-horns, and try all those tube amps you have and tell us what you think.

[whell]

Umm...there still alot of us hanging around here who own solid state equipment, and choose not to go the tube route. We're not heretics or conventionalists, we just like what we like.

[dbflash]

Dean, Man you are getting good at this.

Mike- I agree. My Parasound SS amp is very close to tube. In some ways I like it better. I think there are some very good SS amps out there. I also think there are some crappy tube amps out there. I also think that once you get into tubes its more of a game to play around with changing out tubes to see if it makes a difference. With SS once you get the right amp it's really hard to change out Transistor's. FET's,etc.

I have also used a tube preamp and a SS amp with very good results.

Danny

[NOSValves]

rf3iicrazy

Is the retail price of your Music Fidelity A300 somehwere around $2500 or more ??

Craig

[mobile homeless]

I'll let you in on a secret (or not so secret). The FIRST day they make a solid state amp sound as good as a tube amp from the midrange on up, for a reasonable price (hell, any price for that matter), I'll be the first in line to buy it.

I have actually yet to hear a solid state amp of ANY price equal the harmonic richness and palpable nature of a good tube amp in the midrange up to the high end.

I have had solid state amps that I like and have heard others that I admire, but none of them so far have equaled tubes in this regard.

For those that DO elect to remain solid state bound, an excellent tube preamp is a VERY good compromise.

kh

[Manuel Delaflor]

I agree Mobile, that is why I choosed (well, price also had something to do here ) an Hybrid Integrated. I have the tube sound at a modest price. On the future, of course, I want to "upgrade" to a full tubes solution, but in the meantime I&fw=2&uid=482984340&gwp=1&ver=2.3.0.227&ttport=0&bRegistered=1&spl=2&wrong=couldnen%27t&sid="> couldn't be happier!

(by the way Kelly, did you received my last email?)

[Audible Nectar]

For me, the best simple analogy (average joe take) for SS vs. tubes would be:

Solid State = "steely"

Tubes = "liquid"

I find that I like aspects of both. For SS, I like the slam and "tightness" of the bass (I find that my live concert habits and software play a large part in this, where the classical listener wouldn't need it). It's all about the power, baybee - power you can feel! SS prefers that you use it, since SS sounds better when "opened up", as Deang alluded to. Not as effective at conversational volume, but a well chosen SS unit can help some. SS and HT work well together. Perceived as "bright" - certainly more high frequency. SS will expose poor recordings (can make some downright unlistenable).

Tubes are oh so sweet with the image and feel of a performance, especially with classical, jazz, and vocals. Tubes give a much truer tone - more faithful to what the instrument actually sounds like. A solo cello can make you cry. "Involving" and "emotional" best decribe the tube character - or just "fluid". I find with rock that tubes sound a bit more "run together" (but not necessarily distorted), at high volume. The midrange really shines though, even if the low bass isn't as tight. Much smoother treble - tubes also smooth over some of those bad recordings a bit, and actually can make them listenable.

I've pondered what would be a meaningful upgrade path regarding my home theater amplification. It is my only system, and it looks to be that way for a while. Not that I'm really looking to upgrade per se, but if I were, I can't honestly say which way I would go. In SS, I like McIntosh, in tubes, who knows?? I would need 5 channels (and need to deal with maintaining the tubes). In this scenario I would go SS for the sub, tubes for the rest.

I ultimately decided a year ago that 5 channels of SS is more cost effective and maintenance free than tubes - going tube for HT amps would be toooooo slippery of a slope. I welcome the forums opinions here, but it's not an upgrade that I'm pushing for.

I am inclined, however, to dream of big blue meters.

System:

Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains)

Klipsch Academy (center channel)

Klipsch Chorus (surrounds)

Krell Home Theater Standard processor

Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165)

Bass Kit: 2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets - Crown CE 1000 amplifier - Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ)

Sources: Rega Planet CD Player - Pioneer DV-333 DVD - Accuphase T101 FM Tuner - 2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks - General Instruments cable box - Panasonic VHS PV-4459 VCR - Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound)

[AnalOg]

Dean

That was a great description.

Tom

[AnalOg]

List on it is about $1700.00

[Clipped and Shorn]

Given the comments above, I see why bi ampers and tri ampers choose a good SS amp for the bass and tubes for the mids on up. Think I might go this way myself. The Carver TFM55 is supposed to be a good one to find on the used market.

-c7s

[mike stehr]

Cheap Tube entry level vintage set-up.

1959? Montgomery Wards "Airline" SE 6BQ5 AM/FM phono stereo receiver.

(Original black plate W&G branded tubes, and 5Y3 rectifier.)

Runs like a champ, at the moment.

Norelco/Philips AD 4201 M/77 12" Dual Cone 4 ohm FR Loudspeakers.

Receiver for Ten Bucks, Norelcos for Ten bucks.

Pure midrange bliss, a little on the beamy side because of FR's, but hey, Twenty bucks!

No I don't get tight bowel moving bass, but what tone!

I do have the SVS 16/46 pair for bottom end, but it is a mismatch from hell.

(It does depend on the music material.)

It's a great comfy setup for listening to light comfy music in a smaller room all day/night long.

It will do thrash, but at light comfy levels!

I just like vintage stuff. And I really have no clue why I posted this, However.

[Deang]

Mike. You are -- therefore you post.

Whell, umm, actually, you SS folks ARE "conventionalists", but "heritics" you are not -- for that blessed title is reserved for us tubies. For sure, to each his own. Nobody hear is slamming solid state, but merely stating what we feel the differences are. Also, the majority on this forum were using SS two years ago, and most who have actually tried tube gear in their system has NOT gone back. As a matter of fact -- I don't know ANYONE that has gone back to SS after experiencing even the most humble tube setup. Many who enjoy HT have found it best to create a separate system for 2-channel music.

[Soundthought]

Dean, I must commend you on your above post relating to the comparison of tubes and SS.

Very well written. IMO.

You are getting good at this.

Many are those whom will never obtain the ability to convey their thoughts and feelings through written words with any reasonable accuracy.

Fortunate are those who can utilize that ability to benefit others.

The most fortunate aquire the nessesary insight needed to guide others unto a greater understanding of themselves and the many obscure ways their existence can affect the reality of others.

A greater understanding is the pinnacle of existence for me.

*I truly believe understanding yourself from all facets both internal and external, is one of the most important challenges in our short lives.

And just about the most rewarding.

BTW. I love tubes and SS.

They each have their own specific place in my listening environments.

In fact, as I write, I'm jammimg to some Dave Mathews "Under the Table..." with both SS and Tubes a going.

Got my Marantz w/ dual discrete output spinning,

-AQ Diamondbacks to Jolida202 to SB1s.

-Monster Toslink to 100W 5 channel SS receiver to Qaurtets.

Volumes mated with my Rat Shack meter.

And it sounds tight yet rich, smooth yet edgy, spacious yet focused.

The decay time I so truly love with tubes is pre-accentuated by the quicker response of SS.

Seriously, It's sounds pretty darn good.

There is an issue of differing decay times and phasing anomolies.

But as long as it gives me a different perspective by which to experience my favorite tunes, then i'm all for it.

Keep up your vividly descrpitive posting, Dean.

I like the impressionistic side of this hobby as much as over-analytical scientific side.

[Audio Flynn]

It would be intersting if somone has tried Naim Nait 5 or another Naim with Klipsch. Reviews of their SS gear are described quite differntly than other SS amps.

If I get tubes I will still need cages to keep the cats and Nerf balls from beating up the unit.

There was a Conrad Johnson MV-52 power amp(not sure what the design concept is for this amp...ultralinear?) on Audiogon that looked stong enough to survive my household environment. Not enough cash to do anything right now.

Car repairs, Christmas....maybe the grinch has a chance this year.

Rick

[NOSValves]

rf3iicrazy,

Wish Danocaster would drop in here I think he had the same amp as you for a while and thought the Scott 299A he had was better overall sound for CD's and especially Vinyl. Than he recieved and higher up the chain Music Fidelity amp can't remember the Model just new the one you listed was familar to me. The one he ended up saying sounded the best after weeks of comparing was the $3000 Music fidelity over the 299A by a very slight margin. He also said since he sold this stuff for a living he felt Obligated to have at home what he sold. He also said something to the effect that Dollar value wise the Scott was a clear winner hands down for less than $500.

Maybe you should drop him a email and ask his opinion on tubes versus what you have now. SparkleDrive1@aol.com

Craig

[Randy Bey]

Tom,

you didn't say what 20 year old equipment you are basing your opinion of solid state on.

Back in the 80's there was way too many bad examples of SS.

You probably are hearing the difference between poorly executed SS circuitry and properly executed SS circuitry.

I think it is very likely there are poorly executed tube circuitries, as well as good.

There is a world of difference between the two, even when comparing good to good.

I haven't heard a SS amp I like but I admit that there must be some, and Musical Fidelity would be a possibility, which I have not heard.

If you're happy, why not just fuggidaboutit? Enjoy the music.

[AnalOg]

Craig

thanks for that info. I think I'll take you up on that and see what his views are on comparing the two.

thankx

Tom