Who needs such promises?

[KT88]

Couldn't PIM be handled with some kind of nano soldering?

[Islander]

On 6/10/2021 at 8:47 AM, DrWho said:

Perhaps the same thing that had you perusing in the first place?

 

If you know what you're looking/shopping for, then you probably don't explore the fringes? So perhaps there's some unknown need not being met that is fueling a mind open to new discovery? And writing about it is perhaps a means to subdue this anxious curiosity?

 

 

 

Great to see you again, Doc.

[Audible Nectar]

If high end cable manufacturers were legit and real they would provide a 30 day return policy, no questions asked. Now I've been out of the cable shopping thing for a while, but are there any of these high end manufacturers who do this (besides the local big-box basic places, which don't sell high end, nut anyway.....)?

[ODS123]

Companies like this exist (and often succeed) because the audiophile world expects NOTHING from them in terms of high quality evidence to support their claims.  ...We give them cover by saying, "Well... to each their own.  If someone buys this and hears an improvement, then no harm, no foul.  ..No skin off my nose" .  To me, this is borderline aiding and abetting.   ..As audiophiles we need to set a higher bar, or our hobby becomes less and less appealing to people who believe in evidence based science.   At minimum, audiophiles should be asking, "Please show me blinded listening trial results ...Show me how people who, while unaware of which cables are in use, pick YOURS as making a system sound better (or at least different - as "better" is subjective).  ..And they do this more often then they would by chance."

 

Alas... it will never happen.

[ODS123]

2 hours ago, Audible Nectar said:

If high end cable manufacturers were legit and real they would provide a 30 day return policy, no questions asked. Now I've been out of the cable shopping thing for a while, but are there any of these high end manufacturers who do this (besides the local big-box basic places, which don't sell high end, nut anyway.....)?

 

I've definitely seen some (if not mfgs, then on-line retailers) who do offer 100% money-back guarantees.  ..But this isn't any kind of assurance their pricey cables sound any better.  ..It only means that they built the cost of returned cables into their pricing - which is probably not hard to do given their margins.

 

I find it hilarious that all the meters of wire INSIDE of a component can be of thinnish gauge with plain looking insulation, but the cable that JOINS two components must be 4x as thick and have beautiful milled connectors, and slick woven covering.  ..Me thinks it's to suggest "this is serious kit!!".  ..Nope - it's just wire.

 

Funny how you don't see Wire and Cable fetishism when it comes to life-saving medical diagnostic equipment or on Aircraft that carries hundreds of people.  

[richieb]

Let’s not forget the new KHorns ( and maybe other new Heritage models) use Audioquest Type 4 Star Quad for their internal wiring as opposed to “just ordinary connecting wire”. So is this to appeal to the audiophile “snob” crowd or to justify the top of the line premium price or has a sound improvement been found in this cable choice? Or all the above? I’d bet the Chief would admit to a sonic improvement as opposed to just a random wiring choice. 

[ODS123]

2 minutes ago, richieb said:

Let’s not forget the new KHorns ( and maybe other new Heritage models) use Audioquest Type 4 Star Quad for their internal wiring as opposed to “just ordinary connecting wire”. So is this to appeal to the audiophile “snob” crowd or to justify the top of the line premium price or has a sound improvement been found in this cable choice? Or all the above? I’d bet the Chief would admit to a sonic improvement as opposed to just a random wiring choice. 

 

Yes...  This appeals to the audiophile "snob" crowd.  Exactly.

 

I would but my life that PWK would say this does NOTHING to improve the sound of the new Khorn.  

[Audible Nectar]

I have two sets of ICs I got from a local guy who builds this sort of stuff (he's a tube tech too) and his were solid copper core runs, no strands, and no shielding. They are a different animal, but tricky to work with for obvious reasons, but really good sounding generally. 

 

I'm rewiring a theater, too, and wondering what if anything here needs some updating.......I'm sure it does and would put anyone slinging lofty claims to the test, to be sure....one thing I do know is I gotta read up on HDMI cables again cuz I haven't bought one in YEARS.....

[KT88]

Here is a small but perhaps quite representative example of "audiophile engineering" in the outside world and "sensible engineering" in the inside world of a loudspeaker. The brand is quite reputable and very well known. It was simply the first image that appeared to me in a google search for "driver connection wiring". It could have been many other brands as well. I deliberately chose this example because the photos are public and even serve advertising.

EDIT…It is not an advertising material but a review (even if it reads like advertising).

 

Anyway I do not "expose" secrets. But the audiophile consumer only sees what he wants to see. The interest, the "half-knowledge" and the emotions control the view.

Here is a photo that shows the inside of the box. The drivers are connected just like the oil pressure sensor on my car's wiring harness. This works and is perfectly ok for me also for a speaker.

 

Here the speaker cable connection terminals to the amplifier are shown and described.

The text says: 

„Van Den Hul cables are used throughout and to the rear are single wired WBT 710 Cu mC Next-Gen terminals“.

 

My source.

https://studioincar.co.uk/blogs/projects/dynaudio-heritage-special

 

Let's be clear, everything is allowed, wonderful and all the more beautiful if it pleases the owners and stimulates the purchase.
You should know for yourself where you stand. I even believe that these hifi products manufacturers are forced to serve audiophile half-knowledge, because otherwise it would be missed by many consumers.

You can also buy 10 cm cable bridges for $600 to replace the contact plates of a biwiring connection. But that is the outside world. Inside the (very good) box, the same cables are in many high end speakers connected to the crossover with car plugs. Why? not only to save money but because it works.

By the way, many engineers say that small connection surfaces conduct the signal much better than large surfaces. Gold-plated WBT plugs, as thick as two thumbs, may work electrically worse than small cable lugs. Compare the Mcintosh MC275 MK4 connectors with those of the MK5 (or later).
What does the "audiophile" want to see and what makes more sense in my opinion (MK4).
But who wants to sell must serve fashions, that's the way it is.

 

MK4

 

MK5 and later.

 

Shindo, one of the most expensive Japanese amplifier manufacturers One man company takes only screw terminals with small surface, as it is used for example in Klipsch AA crossovers or other types of that time or in the MC275 MK4 above and the original from the sixties also.

 

I'm by no means saying everything doesn't matter and you don't have to worry about it. But there is a difference if it is technically useful or just to impress the eye. I am not accusing anything or anyone. I am interested in the phenomenon itself.

I am not only curious about the emotional phenomenon. I also read technical books like this almost 25 years ago.

https://www.tnt-audio.com/books/cable_cookbook_e.html

 

Finally the sound must be enjoying to us. Just a fictional example. What if the „science“ would report that say a Nordost speaker cable has better measurements in some way but I would prefer a Kimber TC, or the cable which illuminates our light bulbs.

 

 

 

 

 

[richieb]

3 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

Yes...  This appeals to the audiophile "snob" crowd.  Exactly.

 

I would but my life that PWK would say this does NOTHING to improve the sound of the new Khorn.  

My last comment on this slippery slope with “wire”. 
I wouldn’t bet your life, maybe a house or car. Now I’d bet a dollar to a donut Roy could document an improvement was found as he developed the new KHorn. Doubt he gives a damn about the “snob” crowd. But I could be totally wrong - 
 

[Bubo]

On 6/4/2021 at 7:41 PM, KT88 said:

I accept the free choice that everyone has. I find it interesting and invigorating for our audio hobby, what there are for manifold attempts and solutions and no one should be denied something.
I don't want to make a crusade. But...$600 for a few drops of a magic water is, in my understanding, more likely to seduce mentally weak people. 
With all the freedom of experimentation, there is, on the other hand, common sense and proportionality. At least in the way that everyone individually considers right.

 

Fools and their money are soon parted

You can't fix stupid

[Bubo]

2 hours ago, KT88 said:

Here is a small but perhaps quite representative example of "audiophile engineering" in the outside world and "sensible engineering" in the inside world of a loudspeaker.

 

A wire is in fact just a wire.....

only on frequencies well out of the range of audio is there a need for shielded coax

The rest is just fluff

 

Gold doesn't need cleaning every few years or decades

but zinc plated steel conducts just fine.

 

Shielded RCA and USB cables are just fine and under $20

[oldtimer]

29 minutes ago, Bubo said:

A wire is in fact just a wire.....

A kiss is just a kiss

A sigh is just a sigh

The fundamental things apply

As time goes by...

[ODS123]

2 hours ago, richieb said:

My last comment on this slippery slope with “wire”. 
I wouldn’t bet your life, maybe a house or car. Now I’d bet a dollar to a donut Roy could document an improvement was found as he developed the new KHorn. Doubt he gives a damn about the “snob” crowd. But I could be totally wrong - 
 

 

My hunch is that Roy and the design team for the new Khorn know very well that AQ wiring neither measurably, nor audibly improves the speaker.  It DOES however, help them impress the non-scientific audiophile who thinks fancy wire matters.  ..And considering the rather short of amount used in each speaker, it does little to raise the production cost of the speaker.  Who knows what Klipsch pays per ft. for the wire, but I'm sure it's a fraction of what one would spend at an audio dealer.

 

 

ADDED:

 

Roys job is to sell speakers - and they are excellent speakers IMHO. And if adding a few meters of named brand wiring helps - why not?

 

But it is NOT his job to debunk audio myths.  ..If Klipsch were to issue a statement that pricey speaker cables are no better than lamp chord, tbey would upset their dealers who rely heavily on the extra revenue that comes from selling boutiquey cables.  Without these dealers, audio as a hobby will likely die off.  

 

But as an engineer I suspect Roy knows better.

[oldtimer]

Marketing agreement.   It used to be another "big name" brand.

[Bubo]

16 hours ago, oldtimer said:

A kiss is just a kiss

A sigh is just a sigh

The fundamental things apply

As time goes by...

 

 

 

Stardust" is an American popular song composed in 1927 by Hoagy Carmichael with lyrics added in 1929 by Mitchell Parish. Originally titled "Star Dust", Carmichael first recorded the song at the Gennett Records studio in Richmond, Indiana. The song, "a song about a song about love",[1] played in an idiosyncratic melody in medium tempo, became an American standard, and is considered one of the most recorded songs of the 20th century, with over 1,500 total recordings.[2] In 2004, Carmichael's original 1927 recording of the song was one of 50 recordings chosen by the Library of Congress to be added to the National Recording Registry.

 

 And now the purple dusk of twilight time Steals across the meadows of my heart

High up in the sky the little stars climb

Always reminding me that we're apart

You wander down the lane and far away

Leaving me a song that will not die

Love is now the stardust Of yesterday

The music Of the years Gone by

 

Refrain: Sometimes I wonder why I spend the lonely nights Dreaming of a song. The melody haunts my reverie. And I am once again with you When our love was new. And each kiss, an inspiration. But that was long ago. And now my consolation Is in the stardust of a song. Beside a garden wall where stars are bright You are in my arms. A nightingale sings its fairy tale Of paradise where roses bloom. Though I dream in vain In my heart it always will remain my stardust melody The memory of love's refrain. The memory of love's refrain

[thebes]

On 6/12/2021 at 10:51 AM, richieb said:

Let’s not forget the new KHorns ( and maybe other new Heritage models) use Audioquest Type 4 Star Quad for their internal wiring as opposed to “just ordinary connecting wire”. So is this to appeal to the audiophile “snob” crowd or to justify the top of the line premium price or has a sound improvement been found in this cable choice? Or all the above? I’d bet the Chief would admit to a sonic improvement as opposed to just a random wiring choice. 

So Klipsch has stopped using "Monster Cable" in their speakers?

 

Gee, I'm sure they only used Monster Cable because it was the bestest there ever was, and not a marketing juggernaut.

 

Does anybody in the cable world even realize that RCA cables are a specification? That speaker cable is a connector?

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, anything outside of the specification is simply turning a connector into some form of attenuator. Sure you can hear a difference, because they are deliberately messing with the signal.

 

Yes I'll pay a few bucks more for a cable made with better copper, but anything beyond that is goofyville.

[Marvel]

On 6/8/2021 at 9:08 PM, KT88 said:

Because I didn't know what deoxite is (we don't have this trade name in Germany), when googling I found this (below). If the man is so upset about the price of deoxit, then he should better never know the "3-D Enhancer Solution". 

 

https://www.hagensieker.com/wordpress/2018/06/18/deoxit-what-is-it-what-isnt-it/

 

A few years ago, Dennis (djk) posted the patent info for Deoxit. I didn't save it, but it actually had some science behind what they claim. Whatever is left after the solvent is gone, molecularly makes the two mating pieces conduct better. Probably not the way they said it. At least Deoxit doesn't cost $600 a bottle. It really is good stuff.

[JohnJ]

5 minutes ago, Marvel said:

At least Deoxit doesn't cost $600 a bottle. It really is good stuff.

Yes it is.

[babadono]

On 6/12/2021 at 2:04 PM, ODS123 said:

My hunch is that Roy and the design team for the new Khorn know very well that AQ wiring neither measurably, nor audibly improves the speaker.

But I'll bet my life that @Chief bonehead made sure the AQ cable did not deteriorate  in any way the new KHorn.

In my mind the phone conversation goes something like this:

Roy----"you wanna use what wire in the new K? Jeez I already changed it form 18ga to 16"

Marketing---- " yes the AQ stuff is what we want to go to market with".

Roy----"OK I 'll get back to you"

3 days later..... Roy---"we put the fancy wire in, it made no difference. But I'll sign off on it if that's want marketing wants" Click.