How loud is typical and still a pleasant sound?

[kjohnsonhp]

I've been using my RS SPL and have found that for CD 2-channel music I've been enjoying 78-85 db music. Pushing to 90 db is just too loud and not pleasing.

I've been listening to Tori Amos, RUSH, Clash, Dvorak Sym n.9, Duke Ellington.

Is this loud enough (probably) and typical or is this a limit of my electronics?

[artto]

that all depends on YOU.

...if you're completely deaf,......no amount of sound pressure is really going to bother you until it gets to th e point of damaging internal organs........

hey.......if you like, & u don't mind going deaf.....turn it up as much as you like for as long as you like. Or turn it down as low as you like. Its YOU who is supposed to being enjoying the music YOU are listening to!

Just make it sound right to YOU. You're preferences will change over time. & eventually, it will sound just right.......to you.

ENJOY

(My reference for any music is the live performance, no matter where it took place)

[kjohnsonhp]

Maybe I should rephrase the question to poll.

How loud do you typically listen to music on your system?

One thing I was wondering about is if the point I feel is too loud is actually too loud or maybe a sign of distortion from my electronics. Or maybe is the "loudness" the harshness of the horns or just plain loud.

70db is probably more typical for me with 78-84db being when I "crank it up". I was wondering if my "crank it up" is even close to the norm. I know these old horns can blast and I wasn't sure if I was in the normal listening range, lower, or higher.

This certainly is 110+db rock concert level which I've read on this board is certainly available from Klipsch.

If I recall correctly isn't the symphony about 90db?

I remember in college our engineering student AV team was hosting The Neighborhoods in the school pub which had a certain max SPL rating in their minds. They had guitar cases in front of the amps and were trying other things to bring the sound within limits...it was quite a site to see a small bunch of engineering students running around the hall with SPL meters in the middle of a raw rock show (while other-- more engineering students-- like me were dancing up a storm). Near the middle of the show David Minehan wielded his guitar across the case and it became a "free for all" to quote Ted Neguent.

I'll have to break out the old French Horn and see how loud that is,too.

[Tom Mobley]

kevin,

are you measuring from your seating location or at one meter? How far is it from your position to the speakers?

Tom

[WMcD]

I agree with KJohnson. When the SPL is getting above 85 dB or so, things are getting muddy. When the meter is showing 85 dB, short duration peaks may be 18 dB higher. I might be my "old" ears but I really wonder and invite you to test.

A friend pointed out that he found the same, even if the numbers are not definite. He said that crecendos in the concert hall sound impress him the same way. It is not a matter, only, of the speaker and amp.

I was at the Chicago Symphony sometime later. The seat was behind the orchestra. Yup, when everything cranking, the sound is not nearly as well defined. I don't know how anyone can expect a well defined sound stage when every instrument playing.

On other occasions I've been to live rock concerts. Specifically at the Dallas fairgounds. It just sounded bad. For good or bad, there were lots of road show amps and speakers.

I tried putting some damp tissue paper in my ears and it improved things greatly. So some of this is my ears. Some movie theaters are, to my ears, harsh. I do tend to sit close. The tissue helps a lot.

It may well be that this is a function of age. But I expect younger ears have the same problems at higher levels. So do try the tissue ear plugs. Let us know what you find.

Gil

[Stephen328]

I usually listen to my speaks around 1 watt. (too cheap to buy SPL meter, but I can read the wattage meter on the front of my amp ) Sometimes I take it up to around 5 watts, and once I took it to about 7 or 8, that was loud as hell. ouchy. I guess technically my speaks at one watt are 98db at one meter, then again thats in an anechoic room. So im really not sure how many dbs im pushing. oh well. Im happy!

[Audible Nectar]

I would say that it's doubtful that this is the limit of your electronics (unless you have a very large room) - I think it is just the limit for your ears.

I did some tests with the SPL meter and find that 90db (as measured at 8 feet or so, in a 20 x 16 ft room) is PLENTY loud - even for critical music listening. Louder than that for any sustained period, and thy ears begin ringing

75-85db is about right for most listening situations. When using my system as a home theater, louder peaks are OK, but the normal volume still stays in that range.

I must admit 90db was louder than I first thought, until I got the SPL meter.

As for rock concerts, most bands care as much about sound as much as a hog cares about sanitation. It's distorted to begin with, so it's hard to tell if it's the excessive volume, bad band, bad venue, or all three.

There are exceptions to the rule. Colorado's String Cheese Incident sets the SPL at about 85-88 db sustained, which again is plenty of volume to sound full - but also as clean as a whistle. This band has the best soundman I've ever seen/heard in the rock and roll business. When the passages get quiet, the sound is soooooo clean. When they turn it up, there is no feedback. During an SCI performance last spring at the Fox Theater in Atlanta, my friend and I were commenting and comparing the sound from the front row upper balcony to Edster00's Klipschorns, which we had heard several hours earlier. There wasn't much difference - my friend and I are still debating which was better - one year later!

[Doug C]

I typically listen in the 80-85 dB range which is relatively loud but comfortable for extended listening. On ocassion I will crank it up to the 90-95 dB range. As I have imporved my system over the past couple years I actually find I am listening at lower levels. Improved soundstage, clarity, etc. provide more listening satisfaction at lower levels.

My RF-7's just sound cleaner & more dynamic at lower levels compared to my Paradigm Studio 100's for instance.

Doug C

[Fish]

In my 24x24 room I can easily hit 110+ db's of crystal clear sound,I do not listen at this level for long,just for a rush.If you cannot get at least 100db's cleanly,you may look at your gear,speakers,amp,source.I think 80 to 90 db's is about an average listening range for me.The level you like is what's important for you,so just make sure its clean at your max levels.

[Deang]

"I don't know how anyone can expect a well defined sound stage when every instrument is playing."

LOL: Rather profound.

With a nice two-way, without a squawker blaring into my face -- I do most of my Rock-n-Roll at 90 to 95 db.

[erikjohn]

I like to listen around 90-110 db if I really just want to sit back and listen. I have no problems going into the 110-120 range either on some special occasions for short durations. For casual listening around 80-90 is good. These are max SPL's not averages, 110 and above continously can get a little harsh on the old ears.

In general I like to feel like I am at the concert, front row of course. Amazingly enough my hearing is still in tact. BTW I have been to probably over 100 concerts in my life and can't remeber any sounding nearly as good as my HT.

EJ

[ChrisK]

Last week while some of the members of the SoCal Horn Group were listening to a demo of Edgarhorn Titans with the Titan Bass Horn, Dr Edgar hooked up a meter to measure the power output of the amps driving the speakers. While the music did not appear extremely loud, I was amazed when another fellow tried to speak to me. He was right next to me and I couldn't hear a single thing coming out of his mouth. The music was that loud. At the same time it did not sound uncomfortable at all. In fact the music sounded quite nice. BTW, all the while we were eyeing the watt meter and it pretty much stayed between .25 & 1 amp for 99% of the music, peaking at 1.75 to 2 watts very briefly during crescendos.

The above clearly established to me that clean sound can be loud and enjoyable at the same time. If I had tried driving my speakers that high, people would have been running out of the room holding their ears. Since then it has been demonstrated to me that room acoustical treatments (Of which Dr. Edgar's demo room has many.) have a tremendous effect on sound quality. Are the lack of acoustic room treatments one of the critical ingredients that we miss taking into consideration? Is this why equipment so often sounds better in the audio salon showroom than it does when we get it home? Im starting to think so. However, this still doesnt mean my wife is going to let me put bass traps and various level sound diffusers on display in hour house.

Thanks,

Chris

[hwatkins]

For my preference - 65 - 70 db average measured at my listening position (13 feet) is very loud and clear. Any above that and I need to be sure the house is empty and it is for my enjoyment only...

[Mallette]

Hmm. I agree with most all of the above.

I certainly hit a crystal-clear 110 or so with stuff like Midnight Oil, though not for long. Gives me a thrill, and others, but you gots to be smokin' wacky tabakky and drinkin' Ripple to tolerate it long.

There is no "realistic" level for studio produced music. Everything else I listen to at as close to original level as possible, which is governed by the quality of the recording. Since I've been on both sides of the stage for choral and instrumental music over the years and am a recording engineer, I've a pretty good idea what "realistic" is. I actually set up my mics and such before a location recording in my listening room to test.

I went to a Rolling Stones (Steel Wheels, early 80's) concert at the Cotton Bowl. The sound was unbelievably bad, which made the levels scarely tolerable. Still fun, though. Great party, so I was told...

Gil: Have you been to the Meyerson Symphony Center? Even full orchestra and organ is very clean there, pushing well past 100db with no muddying and still pleasant on the ears.

They do HORRIBLE micing there for broadcast concerts like the Christmas thing. Completely ignored the qualities of that great hall, with a nasty hum to boot. Crikey, they used 36 mics. The Microphone Police should be at the door next year and confiscate all but about six.

Dave

[mace]

Hi,

When really listening typical levels for me are around 80-85 dB. My room is 16 x 24 with one 16 foot wall wide open to the next room (speakers on long wall, 13 feet apart).

djk: I agree that a real good test of how full and effortless a sound system reproduces music is in the "I couldn't hear myself talk" test. I had the same experience when I first had Cornwalls in my dorm room many moons ago. I hooked them up with some friends and we put in You shook me all night long. I had my amp at about 9 o'clock, expecting it to be *really* loud. Well, it wasn't so I bumped up the amp to 10 o'clock which seemed a little louder but not "in your face" *really* loud. I then turned to a friend and began to speak and couldn't hear myself talk. As mentioned in this thread, the point is the quality of the sound has lot to with how *loud* it sounds. Another factor is the high end. A lot of upper mid-range and high frequencies are much less tolerable than the same SPL for low mid-range and bass.

Room acoustics are a huge factor in sound quality. Hook up a sine wave generator to your stereo (I use a laptop with a waveform generator program) and walk around your room. Use 100 Hz, 200, 400, 1000 and 2000 Hz for starters. Notice how the sound just disappears in some areas of the room! You almost have to experience this to believe it.

Also, has anyone used an SPL meter in the car going 60 down the highway? I was surprised at the amount of noise. It was around 80-85 dB!!

Mace

[AnalOg]

For what its worth, I agree on the comments made in regards to the quality of sound dictates the tolerance one can exhibit to higher spl's. On cd playing a piece of music I will tolerate lower levels than on vinyl with the same piece of music. Same in conjuction between my ss and tube amp. The quality of those upper frequencies plays a role in the level of PAIN one can indur in a piece of music. IMHO.

Tom

[Mallette]

>The quality of those upper frequencies plays a role in the level of PAIN one can indur in a piece of music. IMHO.

Especially true in the case of women and children, MOST especially women. Best distortion detectors on God's green Earth.

Dave

[Colin]

One inherent problem that we have with recorded music is that it still does not approach the dynamic range of live instruments. While passages of orchestral works can have quiet moments as low as 70dB, SPL as measured from the front rows, micro-second musical notes have been recorded as loud as 130dB!

This range is several times what is typically found on a CD. No wonder CDs still do not fool us. While an orchestra may exhibit as much as 60dB range, the CD typically plays about 15dB. So, at the mid-70dBs, which I typically listen at home, when the orchestra crescendo hits a brief peak 55dB higher, the CD only gives me a 90bd peak big difference. It shows how lame the typical specifications for stereos really are. We should have some sort of wave form analysis for movie and music reproduction systems: how close to the real wave form can the entire system come?

[Invidiosulus]

I usually listen at around 90dB average if I am just sitting there listening to music.

Once the volume gets up to around 100db it starts to get a little too bright and snappy to be as enjoyable.

Still I think it depends on the type of sound and the quality of equipment.

My mom used to blast gregorian chant cd's on sunday mornings, I would go into our living room and it was so loud I could not hear people in the kitchen yelling at me that breakfast was getting cold. The sound of the chant however was not harsh but very rich.

I make it a point to take earplugs or cotton balls along if I'm going to a concert or a club.

In a typical club sound levels near the speakers are often well over 120dB.

120dB is considered the normal volume at which hearing damage starts.

Basically if you listen for any extended amount of time at around 120dB or higher you WILL have hearing damage.

At 140dB hearing damage happens almost instantly, the amount of damage depends on the duration of the sound.

As your hearing is damaged you lose the ability to hear high as well as low frequencies althought it's often easier to notice the lack of treble first.

Protect those ears, they are the only ones you've got

Peace, Josh

[Mallette]

"While passages of orchestral works can have quiet moments as low as 70dB,..."

I would think as low as 40 for ppp harp or similar.

"SPL as measured from the front rows, micro-second musical notes have been recorded as loud as 130dB!"

Fer shure...

"This range is several times what is typically found on a CD. No wonder CDs still do not fool us. While an orchestra may exhibit as much as 60dB range, the CD typically plays about 15dB."

15db absolute? Or what? I live in an EXTREMELY quiet neighborhood with double-pane windows. Even with all the AC and whatever shut off, background levels are still at least 30db. At 15db absolute, I'd hear nothing...

"So, at the mid-70dBs, which I typically listen at home, when the orchestra crescendo hits a brief peak 55dB higher, the CD only gives me a 90bd peak big difference. "

While I've not had the pleasure of recording a full symphony orchestra (discounting the Singapore Youth Orchestra. Yikes!), I've done up to 20 piece chamber orchestra with brass and precussion augmentation and full choirs. Even with the chime guy banging all over the chimes and all else going full tilt, I've been able to obtain the full dynamic range without compression...even at 16/44.1. I assure you the total range is at LEAST 60 db.

As I've switched to recording at 24/88.2, I should be able to get from nat burp to elephant phart...

Dave