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LaScala bass?

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15 hours ago, Deepbass_smallsize said:

Yes.  I have been looking at the very impressive Klipsch stadium or the Devialet Phantoms.  I saw that amazon lowered the klipsch to a excellent $600. I’m debating if I should get it or continue saving for the devialet. In that process I saw in forums the word ‘la scala’ speakers and didn’t know what they were.  When I went to Klipsch and saw the information I was impressed. Saw the price and figured they must be really high end. But I was disappointed when I saw the frequency response only went down to 51hz. So I commented on here about them.  I love music but I want to hear all the frequencies especially the lowest tones.   That’s my quick background story. 🙂

Side note:   I admit I’m somewhat of a grammar Nazi. It should say “an excellent” not “a excellent”. 

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1 hour ago, Deepbass_smallsize said:

Side note:   I admit I’m somewhat of a grammar Nazi. It should say “an excellent” not “a excellent”. 

Just go back an edit it.  I do things like that all the time but "usually" edit before any other grammar "Nazis" catches them.:o:P

 

Bill

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1 hour ago, willland said:

Just go back an edit it.  I do things like that all the time but "usually" edit before any other grammar "Nazis" catches them.:o:P

 

Bill

 

 

While on the subject i hate to be the grammar police but most on the forum don't know the difference between a "grille" and a "grill". You cook food on a "grill", where a "grille" is an ornamental screen covering an opening.

 

While not as popular "base" in place of "bass" is another one you see all too often.

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19 hours ago, Deepbass_smallsize said:

In that process I saw in forums the word ‘la scala’ speakers and didn’t know what they were.  When I went to Klipsch and saw the information I was impressed. Saw the price and figured they must be really high end. But I was disappointed when I saw the frequency response only went down to 51hz. So I commented on here about them.  I love music but I want to hear all the frequencies especially the lowest tones

I would guess that you probably haven't heard the difference in sound of fully horn-loaded loudspeakers over direct radiating ones.  People that appreciate low bass and that own La Scalas or Belles often add subwoofers and cross over at 60-80 Hz--just like common tower loudspeakers made for home theaters. 

 

Personally, I recommend only horn-loaded subwoofers (tapped horn or conventional front-loaded) when used with La Scalas, Belles or even Khorns or Jubilees.  The reason for this is the cleanness of sound from horn-loaded bass and mid-bass over direct radiating cones--a sound that is not bloated or over-emphasized.  The issues that people have in blending La Scalas and Belles with direct radiating subwoofers is likely due to the subwoofers'  greatly increased modulation distortion levels (i.e., not harmonic distortion), and compression and other large signal distortions.  PWK talked about trying to mix and match direct radiating loudspeakers with fully horn-loaded loudspeakers, and recommending against the practice

 

I enjoy classical pipe organ recordings and that includes those stereo pipe organ recordings restored via demastering techniques, as well as very clean double bass and 5- and 6-string jazz electric bass and restored kick drum transients from stereo recordings.

 

Chris

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I suppose it was just a matter of time before someone came along to pick up where Virgil Fox left off.  The facility of Mr. Carpenter seems to be of the order of Mr. Fox, and his technical abilities using his "Touring Organ" (M&O) far exceed anything that I've heard from Mr. Fox since the technology of electronic organs has progressed so much since 1980, the year of Mr. Fox's passing. 

 

I did find this YouTube video of a Bach Prelude (I believe it is Prelude & Fugue in g minor, BWV 542) being played behind the time lapse assembly of his touring organ.  I recommend watching this one highly...on a home hi-fi setup that can do justice to the sweep of the organ's performance...

 

 

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6 hours ago, Deepbass_smallsize said:

Side note:   I admit I’m somewhat of a grammar Nazi. It should say “an excellent” not “a excellent”. 

Well your just going to love my post, or they will just push you over the edge  ! :unsure::P

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The "International Touring Organ" of Cameron Carpenter ($1.4M) shown in the video has the following description:

 

Quote

THE EQUIPMENT

  • The organ consists of a modular console assembled from components in six road cases; a supercomputer/amplifier unit in two road cases, with one spare; and a proprietary audio system consisting of specialized speakers mounted in ten wheeled road cases and eight wheeled specialty subwoofers. The ten speaker cases each have a footprint of approximately 2.5’ x 4.5’. Cabling for the speaker cases is housed in the base of each case.
  • The console footprint is approximately 9’ x 7’ and does not require any special platform or stage extension. The console has recessed wheels and is easily moveable once assembled.
  • A minimum of 5 dedicated 20-amp circuits is required for safe operation.

 

I can see and (I believe) hear on the video--the compromises in the sound system...but making such a huge instrument transportable and survivable has its own unique set of requirements to trade:

 

Quote

The organ contains more than 200 speaking stops, and is essentially a combination of a 4-manualclassical/ concert organ with a 2-manual theatre-style organ included...The console...[weighs] in at about 2,000 pounds, the massive 5-manual console had to be both impressively large for stage presence AND transportable.

The console was designed so that it can come apart into 6 pieces and be packed in custom-built crates for easy transport. It is possible for two men to wheel the console off of a truck and assemble it with the help of a special hydraulic lift in about 30 minutes. Each section of the console has its own independent computer system and power supply, and the console connects to set of rolling equipment racks which house the tone generators, power amplifiers, digital-to-analog converters and other electronics. All components are compatible with both US and European voltages, allowing the ITO to be playable anywhere in the world.

 

The organ can be configured to operate on only a pair of headphones, with a 2-channel digital or analog feed to a house sound system, with a 24-channel reduced M&O sound system, or a full 48-channel M&O sound system. The entire organ, including console, racks and 48 channel audio system can be set up from dock to operational in about 2 hours, and broken down in about the same.

 

Chris

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9 hours ago, Chris A said:

The "International Touring Organ" of Cameron Carpenter ($1.4M) shown in the video has the following description:

 

 

I can see and (I believe) hear on the video--the compromises in the sound system...but making such a huge instrument transportable and survivable has its own unique set of requirements to trade:

 

 

Chris

Thanks for sharing chris!!

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Back in the early 90's in the head banging days , my lascalas seemed  a bit on the flat side bass wise ....

 

Hence ,  I installed  an audio control " phase coupled activator "  ... problem solved

 

Kick you in the face bass ... I still own 2 Phase coupled activators  that are connected to my quad of k-horns , can't really comment till you actually hear the difference they can make in bass.

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15 hours ago, boxerjake said:

Back in the early 90's in the head banging days , my lascalas seemed  a bit on the flat side bass wise ....

 

Hence ,  I installed  an audio control " phase coupled activator "  ... problem solved

What does this actually do? Is it just like basically cranking the bass on your receiver? 

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4 hours ago, dtr20 said:

What does this actually do? Is it just like basically cranking the bass on your receiver? 

 

Audio control no longer produces this product but a quick google search will still bring up the info ...

 

The devise is basicly a bass extension ... you can really feel the difference , it has a gain control much like a volume pot that controls the amount of bass extension .

 

Goes from thud thud bass to a tight sharp kick you feel in your gut .

 

I have the PCA3 , here is part of the product review from Home theater hi-fi ...

 

 

The Phase Coupled Activator technology is not new, but the Series Three is their latest version (call it the PCA3). The difference between this model and previous ones, is the ease with which signals can be passed first through a crossover network (two channel electronic crossover built into the PCA3, which is separate from the subharmonic generation circuitry) then into the subharmonic circuit. Secondly, the PCA3 has speaker level inputs. Third, the current unit has reduced the 1/8 phase shift that was a problem in older versions. The principle of operation is an assumption that very low frequencies in the original music have been lost or removed during recording and CD production. The PCA3 generates subharmonics at half the input frequency, with a sampling range from 50 - 100 Hz in the "Digital Restoration" mode. So, if the input signal were 80 Hz, you would have an output of 80 Hz and 40 Hz. By limiting the sampling range to 50 - 100 Hz, and only with stereo signals, this eliminates boominess that would occur if subharmonics were added from original frequencies at 100 - 500 Hz, and eliminates adding subharmonics to voices that are sent monophonically (the same signal in both channels, in phase) to the center channel speaker. In other words, any signal that is monophonic will not have subharmonics added to it. The separate crossover can be used to send <90 Hz frequencies (line level inputs and outputs) to a pair of powered subwoofers (one each for left and right channels), and >90 Hz (line level) to the main front left/right amplifiers (pre-outs and main-ins on a receiver can be used).

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On ‎2018‎-‎02‎-‎05 at 9:55 AM, seti said:

 

Unless of course you toss a horn loaded sub and then I am right there with you.

 

Yeah big horn loaded bad boys...the ones where you need to take walls down.

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While no longer made, the Waves Maxxbass 101 might be an alterative. It is still available as a plugin (which I have... but not used yet). It adds the harmonics in the bass, that when heard fools the brain into hearing the lower freq. You won't have 'slam', but you will perceive lower bass.

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/waves-maxxbass-101-102

 

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On 5/22/2003 at 3:09 AM, Ray Garrison said:

...

People that say the La Scala produces bass which is acceptable on her own without some sort of external augmentation are either lying, don't listen to music that has any bass content, or are so self-delutional that you shouldn't take anything they say without a healty dose of salt.

Well, if one is OK with low level bass response....

I have to agree though. I just got my La Scalas and their low bass response is almost nonexistent. I'd love to get some easily compatible subs.

John Kuthe...

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WOW!  I haven't heard anything from/about Ray Garrison in ...... decades. 

 

So, I suppose we should define "bass".  A double bass and an electric bass guitar have a fundamental range of 41 Hz to 392 Hz.  A 5-string bass commonly adds a 31 Hz B string.  Most people would stop calling tones "bass" around A3, 220 Hz.    So I'll put the normal bass range at E1, 41.2 Hz, to A3, 220 Hz.  Below 41 Hz, I'll call it Deep Bass.  The precedent is set by the double bass, a common acoustic instrument used in multiple music genres.  Instruments capable of lower notes exist but are uncommon

 

In a room, on the floor, and near a wall, my La Scalas respond very well down to A1, 55 Hz.  Klipsch claims 51 Hz for the LSII.   Below that, there is not much, though Audessey wants to cross my La Scalas to my subs in my room at 40 Hz and they are not on the floor. 

 

So, Yes, a La Scala reproduces bass, plenty of it and with unusual clarity.  It does not reproduce deep bass at all and struggles to reproduce the lower 3 notes in the common bass range.  Unfortunately, G1 is very common in rock, country and bluegrass music.  It is present, but reduced in authority.  

 

Attached is the Klipsch response curve published in an Audio Engineering Society paper about the La Scala.  That organization would call B.S. faster than anyone should a fake response curve be published.  As you can see, its overall response is quite flat, with a small bump in the bass region.  It does not have an exaggerated response curve like a ghetto car stereo, thankfully; and, it should not. 

 

 

5a4c58de0fac8_Lascalacurve.thumb.jpg.c38f987f70d65888f18ff248a7303e39.jpg

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On 5/23/2003 at 3:30 PM, Invidiosulus said:

Actually the Klipsch website says the current LaScala is rated to 53Hz.

This seems to me not to be a case of the 15" woofer being weak but actually pretty strong when you look at the overall sensitivity of the LaScala, 104dB is certainly no joke in the sensitivity department.

Sure the Khorn goes way lower with the same woofer(K-33-E on current models) at the same sensitivity but you have to take into accout the size of the horn.

A buddy of mine has dual 12" subwoofers in his white suburban(complete with bling bling chrome 20" wheels)which can suck up a hundred or so watts of power(while providing low and muddy one note bass) when my heresy's are cruising along at around 16 watts pumping forth well defined and articulate bass to about 63Hz, if that can be called real bass.

I just lost my train of thought(guiness will do that to ya 2.gif ) I'm not to sure where I was going with all this.

Oh well, just my $0.02

Peace, Josh

I know exactly what you mean by the big high amp BOOM cars, or more correctly the extreme BURP competitions! WAY over bassed for any music.

I like my bass full rich and realistic! And I agree,m yes for extreme bass heavy music yes big subwoofers help a LOT! I have a 12" sub in a birch plywood box in the floor of my Grand Caravan and when I play certain Reggae songs and pump up the bass it's great until my amp overheats and it shuts off temporarily as protection. Very different from my La Scalas bass.

John Kuthe...

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An acoustic bass (as well as an electric one) has an E1 as its low note fundamental....41hz.   A harp has a low note fundamental of Bflat 0 or 29 hz as does the contra bassoon.

 

I pipe organ is E 0, or 20hz.    I would never NOT use a subwoofer with any speaker I have ever heard, including K-horns or Cornwalls.    ENTEC subwoofers can match the speed of an electrostatic such as Martin Logan, Quad or Magnepan.   I use them with my Forte I speakers (known for good bass) and they definitely NEED the subwoofer to make me happy.   The weight of an orchestra is greatly improved by my ENTEC vs my Forte I without it.   The Klipsch subwoofers just don't get it done either.  

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