Listened to Klipschorns for First Time

[Boydfp]

I've had a growing curiousity regarding Klipschorns for both music and home theater. The last time I heard a Klipsch speaker was when I heard a La Scala over 20 years ago (not counting my 2.1 Pro media). The other day I ventured into a store with a set of Klipschorns on display.

The listening session was a bit of a love/hate relationship. I absolutely loved the huge dynamics. Music was weighty and effortless in a way I had never heard before. However, when the volume was turned up even moderately the top horns became excessively bright. The brightness wasn't subtle but was to the point that my daughter and wife started giving me strange faces. We tried several CDs and some were better than others.

The listening room did seem small for the speakers. I would say about 16 feet square. The ceiling was about 8 feet and there was no treatments or even curtains of any kind. The Klipschorns were driven by a small Yamaha receiver and the CDs were played on a Sony blu-ray player.

I suspect that the problem I heard was room based. The salesperson said he owned the Klipschorns as well as the La Scalas and they were less bright sounding in his home. He did suggest that these speakers be mixed with warm sounding sources and amps, preferrably tube amps. I currently own a Marantz AV8003 processor and an Outlaw 770 amp. Reading other posts it seems like these may be an Ok match.

I really wanted to like these speakers (I had fond memories of the La Scala's dynamics) but now I'm not so sure. I've also read a lot about the Jubescalas with the 402 top horn. If these had the same big dynamics as the Klipschorn (not sure with the smaller La Scala bass bin) but were less bright maybe that would be a good way to go.

[Cut-Throat]

The listening room did seem small for the speakers. I would say about 16 feet square. The ceiling was about 8 feet and there was no treatments or even curtains of any kind. The Klipschorns were driven by a small Yamaha receiver

In a small room with a SS receiver, I'm not surprised. - Try them with a tube amp preferably with a SET amp. - You'll have a different opinion.

[Arky]

Jubscalas are outstanding & I heard them with a cheapo Emerson cd player. You can search the forum for jubscala & pull up threads.

Jubilees are better though more expensive.

[greg928gts]

The listening room did seem small for the speakers. I would say about 16 feet square. The ceiling was about 8 feet and there was no treatments or even curtains of any kind. The Klipschorns were driven by a small Yamaha receiver

In a small room with a SS receiver, I'm not surprised. - Try them with a tube amp preferably with a SET amp. - You'll have a different opinion.

I agree, sort of, although I'd say try more power than SET. I think SET is an acquired taste.

If I were a dealer and I had Khorns for people to listen to, I would certainly have a better system set up than the one described in the original post.

Greg

[jwilson55]

Anyone used Carver gear with Khorns? I was curious about the TFM amps?

[PrestonTom]

Anyone used Carver gear with Khorns? I was curious about the TFM amps?

Not all Carver gear is the same.

Regarding the TFM amps: I used one of the smaller (TFM 15) ones on K-Horns and Cornwalls. They sounded okay, nothing spectacular.

If you are searching for a used amp in that price range ($150-300) I would suggest 1) Adcom GFA 555, 2) Hafler DH-200, 3) Carver M1.0t (the later bridgable ones). Number 1 will have a better bass (especially if it is a later series 2 with the PS caps bypassed). Number 2 will not have a strong bass (although not terrible either), but with about $25 in cap upgrades it can have a good, clear mids and highs. Number 3 can have a good overall sound. Going out of this price range, there are all sorts of choices.

[edwinr]

Take care evaluating the Klipschorn with sub-standard amplification. Particularly with something like the receiver you used. Some of the more expensive receivers from Yamaha can sound good though. I ran my Klipschorns with a 50 watt per channel integrated for a while, and the sound was awesome. When I inserted a high quality tube amp, the sound was even better. The Klipschorns are not that fussy vis-a-vis amplification. But low quality amps, be they tube or solid state, will sound ordinary - and you really shouldn't have to resort to frequency challenged amplifiers to make the Klipschorn sound fantastic...

Maybe the room had something to do with the sound as well. Although I would imagine any half competent dealer should be able to sort out room related problems.

[Frzninvt]

Yamaha entry to mid level receivers are NOTORIOUSLY bright with horns, compounded by using a DVD player for redbook CD playback it comes as no surprise they sounded the way they did. They not forgiving of poor sources and amplification. I would ask the store people to hook up a better quality amp/preamp combo and a real CD player and try it again. Also any newer CD's are really over-saturated I would suggest bringing listening material that you are familiar with from your collection for a fair trial.

[dtel]

Including what everyone said about electronics I would say the room also was a big part of what you heard. I have heard Klipschorns in a few different homes and they sounded different in every one !

Yes it was different electronics but you could hear what difference the room made especially in the bass and midrange, I walked away more confused about Khorns after that realizing how much different they can sound in each room. I know that's with every speaker but I think more with Khorns because of the way the folded horn uses the corners and the room.

One of the best demonstration I had seen was at Klipsch in there listening room at the Pilgrimage. We listened to all the Heritage models in the same room, same equipment with just a press of a button to switch to different models.

From the Heresy to the Klipschorn it was a great way to hear the differences. The sound was similar with each in a way but each having a bigger sound until you got to the Klipschorn. When the Klipschorn was on it was not like the sound was coming from the speaker, but the room was the speaker the bass just wrapped around the walls not appearing to come from any certain area, but different than the other times I have heard them.

I guess there are some rooms where other speakers would sound best, but if your room can work with Klipschorns they can be great.

IMO

[colterphoto1]

.

[dtel]

Good point Michael ! []

[Boydfp]

I appreciate everybody's responses. There seems to be a wealth of knowledge in this forum.

I found the comment regarding the cheapo Emerson cd player interesting as many also seem to use a fairly cheap solid state amp (Crown XTi 1000) to drive the Jubescalas and Jubilees. On the other hand there are lots of suggestions to use tube amps with the Klipschorns. Perhaps the Jubes are less sensitive to electronics than the Klipschorns?

[J M O N]

The listening room did seem small for the speakers. I would say about 16 feet square. The ceiling was about 8 feet and there was no treatments or even curtains of any kind. The Klipschorns were driven by a small Yamaha receiver

In a small room with a SS receiver, I'm not surprised. - Try them with a tube amp preferably with a SET amp. - You'll have a different opinion.

I agree, especially if that receiver was an inexpensive AV receiver. Solid state can work if it's good, but no solid state has sounded as good to me as tubes.

[Coytee]

I've also read a lot about the Jubescalas with the 402 top horn. If these had the same big dynamics as the Klipschorn (not sure with the smaller La Scala bass bin) but were less bright maybe that would be a good way to go.

I don't think the JubeScala will have the same size of bass presentation of the Khorn because it's a smaller box as you note. I however, do personally think the midrange on up will best the Khorns 400/77 setup.

Where are you located? Perhaps there is someone near enough to you, to allow you to be enticed to make a visit and give a listen.

If you are anywhere near Knoxville (TN), I can set you up with a listen of the Jubilees/K402 (biamped with Crown K2's), stock LaScala (100% stock other than crossover upgraded to ALK ESN networks) or I can configure a JubeScala as well by moving one of my K402's around. You could hear a LaScala & JubeScala side by side or one of them next to the Jubilee (ok, maybe not so easy on that one since the Jubes are upstairs)

[Coytee]

I found the comment regarding the cheapo Emerson cd player interesting as many also seem to use a fairly cheap solid state amp (Crown XTi 1000) to drive the Jubescalas and Jubilees. On the other hand there are lots of suggestions to use tube amps with the Klipschorns. Perhaps the Jubes are less sensitive to electronics than the Klipschorns?

Being one for overkill, I have lead ears, not tin []

I too, once heard the Jubilees on the cheapo Emerson cd player. In fact, when Klipsch first auditioned the Jubilees for their company sponsored gathering, I think that was the item used, perhaps mated with some Adcom or QSC stuff? (don't remember but the point is, it was NOT the fancy tube stuff you hear about)

In the length of time it took them to play the Eagles opening to Hotel California and the instant that intitial drum kick happened, I said to myself "THAT is the sound I've been looking for my entire life" Long story short, I went home and within a week, put my Khorns up for sale (and sold them within about an hour) and ordered the Jubilees. I had lusted to own Khorns from age 19 (when I bought my LaScalas) to about age 44 when I finally bought a pair of Khorns. I have not missed the Khorns absence for a moment since replacing them with the Jubilees.

Some would say the Jubilee should be even more sensative to electronics since they're more efficient. I don't know. I DO know that I have biamped mine using various amps:

dbx BX1, dbx BX3, Crown K2 (all of these were on the basshorn although the dbx amps were also 4 channel amps so I tried them on entire speakers)

McIntosh MC-2102 (100x2 tubed) only ran my K402 with either BX1 or K2 on bass bins

Viva 300B SET (8 watts? x 2 tubed) only ran on 402's with K2 on bass bin

Quad II (16 watts? the KT66 version of the amp), ran the 402's, K2 on bass bin

In all the above cases, the ONLY amp that made a perceptable difference to me was the 300B amp. I do think it helped the localization of instruments/voices a bit more than the other amps HOWEVER, with that said... I ultimately sold all of those tube amps feeling that the K2's gave me most of what I was looking for without having to spend thousands of dollars (McIntosh) to gain blue meters!

Mr. Budget & I much prefer to have those thousands of dollars in my pocket and accept the limitations that might exist or others might say exist rather than spend thousands more dollars just to better localize a singer (that is already localized center right) by another foot.

I'll give up the 12" of accuracy to keep the cash in my cheap hands!

[]

[Marvel]

Mr. Budget & I much prefer

I thought that would be Mrs budget...

Richard, which of the tubes sounded the best to your own ears when you used them on the 402?

Bruce

[Coytee]

Richard, which of the tubes sounded the best to your own ears when you used them on the 402?

Given the samples above, I'd say the Viva 300B SET amp was the nicest. It either made me THINK I was hearing some spatial ques that were not there or indeed, it helped provide some spatial ques better than the others. If it matters.... it was the last amp I sold of the bunch. Much like the SE-OTL amps I once had (on my Khorns, not Jubes), I really want more power although, the 300B offered me more power than the bridged OTl amps (OTL's were bridged to something like 4 watts)

For my ears, I might have been able to discern differences if my room was a fantastic listening room (well treated and the like). With that disclaimer, the amps sounded more alike to me than more different....except for the 300B. That one did seem to have a nicer presentation. I would think that if I could snap my fingers and have a 'perfect' listening room, perhaps differences in the others would have shown up. I also think if that happened, I would have probably heard an even better difference with the Viva amp.

I must admit, for 99% of my listening (even if I'm actually in the room with the system) it sounds great to my ears, even when biamping with the K2's.

[Boydfp]

I've also read a lot about the Jubescalas with the 402 top horn. If these had the same big dynamics as the Klipschorn (not sure with the smaller La Scala bass bin) but were less bright maybe that would be a good way to go.

I don't think the JubeScala will have the same size of bass presentation of the Khorn because it's a smaller box as you note. I however, do personally think the midrange on up will best the Khorns 400/77 setup.

Where are you located? Perhaps there is someone near enough to you, to allow you to be enticed to make a visit and give a listen.

If you are anywhere near Knoxville (TN), I can set you up with a listen of the Jubilees/K402 (biamped with Crown K2's), stock LaScala (100% stock other than crossover upgraded to ALK ESN networks) or I can configure a JubeScala as well by moving one of my K402's around. You could hear a LaScala & JubeScala side by side or one of them next to the Jubilee (ok, maybe not so easy on that one since the Jubes are upstairs)

Thank you for the generous offer. Unfortunately I'm in Northern California.

[Colin]

Any amplifier is NOT the amplifier. Manufacturers quote
Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) for their
amplifiers at the amplifiers’ highest output. But THD
is not the same for all types of amplifiers. And, since big ole Klipsch horns actually
need a few, generally three to six, but usually not more than 20 watts, these
watts must have very low distortion. Because of their own exceptionally low
distortion, big ole horns are extremely revealing of anomalies upstream. If
a component has lots of distortion at low power, the speakers can sound harsh. Which
types of amplifier have lots of odd-order harmonic distortion at low power? Solid-state.

I have heard the wonderful $6K
Pass X250 (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0202/passx250.htm)
amplifiers on my B-2 Cornwalls Is, and yet my 3-watt $550 2A3 tube Bottlehead
Paramours (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/1202/bottleheadparamour.htm)
can sound just as sweet, when they are not clipping. Powerful
solid-state amplifiers do have headroom so loud passages at high volume have
considerable slam. And not everybody appreciates the soft clipping of tubes.
But to me, all but the very best solid-state amplifiers on big ole horns wears
out my ears.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

The listening session was a bit of a love/hate relationship. I absolutely loved the huge dynamics. Music was weighty and effortless in a way I had never heard before. However, when the volume was turned up even moderately the top horns became excessively bright. The brightness wasn't subtle but was to the point that my daughter and wife started giving me strange faces. We tried several CDs and some were better than others.

I agree with everything said about amplification, like any quality speaker, you will need good sources and amps. But re-read the post. This is a classic flaw of the K400 horn. Even with good surces, at best its tone changes with increased volume, and at worst it can get real nasty. They was the one big complaint that I had with the K horns.

I have not heard the tractrix horns, (even though I have the parts cut out for 3 of them) but they are supposed to fix this. To the OP, do some searching on this site. Read the recent reviews of the V Trac and Tractrix horns. They should be what you are looking for, although you still need good sources and amps.