Why vinyl?

[Zen Traveler]

... Although, as much as I like my LP of Dire Straights - Brothers in Arms, it was recorded with a Sony 48 track digital recorder.

Bruce

Is there anyone who owns both the LP and the SACD and doesn't prefer the latter? I admit, I haven't played the 2-channel version but after discovering multichannel music I haven't had the desire to go back.Fwiw, one of my favorite LPs was Electric Warrior by T-Rex and that is another one that is outstanding on DVD-A and I never remember it sounding so good (although I remember it being" great" at the time).

[Schu]

IF, you could find everything on sacd you might have an argument.

but what we do with our expensive TT's then?

... Although, as much as I like my LP of Dire Straights - Brothers in Arms, it was recorded with a Sony 48 track digital recorder.

Bruce

Is there anyone who owns both the LP and the SACD and doesn't prefer the latter? I admit, I haven't played the 2-channel version but after discovering multichannel music I haven't had the desire to go back.Fwiw, one of my favorite LPs was Electric Warrior by T-Rex and that is another one that is outstanding on DVD-A and I never remember it sounding so good (although I remember it being" great" at the time).

[sebrof]

Stop by my house and you can find out for yourself.

Are you talking about listening to music or the whole rolling herb thing?

(And I know you will answer, "BOTH!")

[sebrof]

Why vinyl over cd or other formats?

I definately like playing records more than playing CDs. I don't know how the computer audio guys do it. I'm at a computer all freakin' day, the last thing I want to do is drag and drop, copy and paste playlists (yuk!!) on my GUIaudioV2.1 playback box when my a$$ is in my listening chair.

Select record, pull the one next to it out slightly so I can find its place when I put it back, out of the cover, out of the sleve, place on mat, carbon brush, cue, drop needle, enjoy. Don't forget to get up as the last song is ending. That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

[thebes]

The hiss, pops, and crackles help keep you awake during the quieter musical passages.

Or try ignoring the grit and sand tossed into my ear canal by a typical cd played through most even high-end playback systems. Add a soupcon of steel while you're at it. Oh and a so subtle electrical distortion that will have you starting off at a reasonable hearing level, only to quickly surrender to fatigue, and crank that sucker down low, where the grating on nerves begins to ease.

Let's face it, lots of lps are easier on the ears,provide better overall sound, soundstage and musicality. Me, I don't want to hear every friggin note on a recording, I want music. Now if you live in some mechanical, mathematical spatial universe inhabited by those whose clothes are neatly ironed at all times, then puleeze drown yourself in digitalis. Me, I'm not ascared of some pops an whistles as I slide down the rabbit hole of musical nirvana.

Now to the technical aspects of the question at hand. Only an idiot would would roll a joint using weed at $180 per 1/4 ounce. In case nobody noticed this is no longer the age of $15 lids and bambu is a plant not a paper.

[Mallette]

In case nobody noticed this is no longer the age of $15 lids and bambu is a plant not a paper.

You're paying more? Bummer...

Dave

[nu2toobs]

Now to the technical aspects of the question at hand. Only an idiot would would roll a joint using weed at $180 per 1/4 ounce. In case nobody noticed this is no longer the age of $15 lids and bambu is a plant not a paper.

I guess I'm lucky to live between CA and CO[]

[Dennie]

Now to the technical aspects of the question at hand. Only an idiot would would roll a joint using weed at $180 per 1/4 ounce. In case nobody noticed this is no longer the age of $15 lids and bambu is a plant not a paper.

I guess I'm lucky to live between CA and CO

Location, Location, Location!

Dennie

[artarama]

2. Generally, the engineering and performances are better. The reason is that not any fool can make an LP...takes a very special fool with considerable money and so more attention was paid.

This is my #1 reason I reach for the vinyl more times than I do the CD's.

I do have to admit however there are some CD's I have that are well engineered and sound fantastic! (Example: Alan Jackson -"like red on a rose"),

Yikes! I feel like I am Blaspheming a bit just saying that [:$]

Bottom line, you can't make it sound any better than it was originally recorded! EQing dosen't count, that's altering the sound, not improving the recording.

(Example: The Who - "Meaty Beaty Big And Bouncy", those guy's had all the money and equipment but somebody had rolled a few too many and wasn't doing their job IMHO.)

Oh yeh, maybe that tin like, transistor radio street recording sound on every song was what they were after [:^)] that record has always made me mad everytime I listen to it. So many great songs that sound like sh.t.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Me, I'm not ascared of some pops an whistles as I slide down the rabbit hole of musical nirvana.

I never heard any pops or clicks the last time I listened to the MSO in person.

Or try ignoring the grit and sand tossed into my ear canal by a typical cd played through most even high-end playback systems. Add a soupcon of steel while you're at it. Oh and a so subtle electrical distortion that will have you starting off at a reasonable hearing level, only to quickly surrender to fatigue, and crank that sucker down low, where the grating on nerves begins to ease.

You need to come over to my place for a listen. Fatigue arises from phase problems generated by the speakers and the room, not the source. Try it for yourself by listening to CD's over a pair of Klipsch image headphones plugged into a USB fed Topping TP30. If you get tired of listening to that, it's only because your body physically needs rest.

[MikeFord]

Three huge pro vinyl reasons;

Vinyl playback is full of colorations, groove distortion, weird high frequency tracking issues, cross talk, and a big one feedback from the speakers (usually less than 20 or 30 db down from the main signal, works just like reverb).

Decades of studio and mastering engineers trained and selected to make something sound good on vinyl and its related limitations and coloration, as well as our own conditioning to accept vinyl coloration as the "way" things are supposed to sound.

The ritual of vinyl playback works like audio forplay to prepare for a listening session.

One HUGE non pro reason for vinyl preference.

Vinyl playback is very profitable for audio stores to sell, and its a major gateway drug for other expensive audiophile products.

[Mallette]

Bottom line, you can't make it sound any better than it was originally recorded! EQing dosen't count, that's altering the sound, not improving the recording.

For that, you get the coveted

TRVTH

award.

Dave

[davis419b]

Now to the technical aspects of the question at hand. Only an idiot would would roll a joint using weed at $180 per 1/4 ounce. In case nobody noticed this is no longer the age of $15 lids and bambu is a plant not a paper.

I am with Thebes on this one ! Papers are like a bad cd. Glass is where its at !

By the way Thebes, you have been getting ripped off your whole life ! Lids were $10 and $180 for a quarter is outrageous.

[JJkizak]

Technically this is what you will run into:

1.....Clicks, pops, scratch noise

2....Ramming a pencil into some records center hole to make it fit on the turntable.

3....Putting a huge center weight on the record to help it track warped records.

4....Spending about a couple of days aligning your tonearm and setting the tracking force.

5....Keeping the volume lower to prevent the 60 hz hum from the motor ruining the sound.

6....Spending big dollars to get a cartridge that you like.

7....Spending about a week of time isolating the turntable from the floor to keep dancing feet from jumping the needle.

8....Extreme hiss at high volume levels. (preamp, amp, cartridge)

9....Acoustical feedback problems with some turntables.

10....Bass frequencies rolled down by the RIAA curve (12db) to enable getting the bass on the record without groove interference.

11....Boosted high frequencies to get them above the high frequency noise level of the record with the RIAA curve knocking them back down.

12....Transient response (sharp ding on any instrument) reduced noticeably if you have an A/B playback setup between a CD and record ofthe same performance.

13....Vinyl's characteristics when formed require huge moisture removal techniques to prevent voids and bubbles.

14....Some records are off center causing much wow and flutter.

15....At loud levels a huge amount of extremely low noise generated in the record groove (bass speakers moving 1/2" back and forth with no music)

16....And I don't like them.

JJK

[T.H.E. Droid]

All valid points but I was hoping for something a little more technical.

Well, vinyl recordings don't suffer the brutal compression that many digital recordings often exhibit (but that's more a critique of production than the end format).

Huh? Vinyl has a fraction of the dynamic range capability of CD's so recordings were compressed in dynamic range, and tonal compression was also used because of the limited tonal range in the highs and physical inability to record large bass excursions. Those of you with some vintage equipment can turn off the RIAA equalization and see what vinyl really sounds like. I like to think of Vinyl as the "Bose 901" of the music world. Sounds bad without being equalized. Not that I hate vinyl-- I don't, and have a record collection that includes lots of vinyl as well as 78's and even cylinders, but disc records are a very limited media.

[T.H.E. Droid]

Or try ignoring the grit and sand tossed into my ear canal by a typical cd played through most even high-end playback systems. ......Let's face it, lots of lps are easier on the ears,provide better overall sound, soundstage and musicality. Me, I don't want to hear every friggin note on a recording, I want music. Now if you live in some mechanical, mathematical spatial universe inhabited by those whose clothes are neatly ironed at all times, then puleeze drown

CD's achieve much higher channel separation and soundstage than any LP. (Not uncommon to hear the soundstage shifting on an LP as the cartridge wobbles on not perfectly centered pressings) The grit and sand you describe is called high frequency content, much of which is missing on LP's. My elderly uncle has the same problem. HF content that I can clearly hear as part of the music, he descibes as "noise" or "distortion" simply because he has age-induced hearing loss. You might want to consider a hearing aid, but in your case, avoid a digital one. []

I love the comment on not wanting to "hear every friggin note on a recording." Reminds me of Mad King Ludwig telling Mozart that his opera had "too many notes." [:'(]

[JBryan]

"Why vinyl?" The only reasons I can fathom is a) you already have plenty of LPs or Digital playback just doesn't do it for you.

Turntables and records are a PITA! Records need to be cleaned and organized and take up a lot of space compared to CDs or better, hard drives and servers. Good TT's aren't cheap and require a plethora of expensive gadgets and fluids to get the best out of your LPs.The minutiae of vinyl playback can be overwhelming... adjustments to the cartridge, arm and plinth can take hours, if not days and with a single mistake, you're back to square one or worse, you have a broken stylus to show for your efforts. The learning curve is tremendous and requires steady hands and good eyes and after applying all the research, math and technical skills you've amassed over the years, you may still manage to put together a arm and cart combo that sounds like crap...expensive crap! And lest I forget, no matter how thoroughly and diligently you clean your records, there will always be that occasional tick or pop to let you know that you're dealing with a far from ideal playback format.

If you're looking for someone to talk you into vinyl, I'm not your guy. I wouldn't even recommend CDs anymore (or SACD's , DVDs, etc.) - they are so last century! Just get a nice network storage system and download hi-rez music or better yet, wait a few months and someone will have all the hi-rez you want on a cloud and you can just pipe it through a nice DAC and be done with it. The convenience of digital is just too hard to argue with these days.

Having said all that, I mainly use my NAS/network player for background music when I work and entertain and to warm up my system. When I actually sit down and listen to music, its almost always coming from my TT. For all its downsides, vinyl offers me the most intimate and emotional connection to music through my system and for that, I'm willing to put up with it all...even those pesky pops.

[Invidiosulus]

The grit and sand you describe is called high frequency content, much of which is missing on LP's.

Oh yeah, the high frequency content on CD's is so accurate,

[Mike Lindsey]

"Why vinyl?" The only reasons I can fathom is a) you already have plenty of LPs or Digital playback just doesn't do it for you.

Turntables and records are a PITA! Records need to be cleaned and organized and take up a lot of space compared to CDs or better, hard drives and servers. Good TT's aren't cheap and require a plethora of expensive gadgets and fluids to get the best out of your LPs.The minutiae of vinyl playback can be overwhelming... adjustments to the cartridge, arm and plinth can take hours, if not days and with a single mistake, you're back to square one or worse, you have a broken stylus to show for your efforts. The learning curve is tremendous and requires steady hands and good eyes and after applying all the research, math and technical skills you've amassed over the years, you may still manage to put together a arm and cart combo that sounds like crap...expensive crap! And lest I forget, no matter how thoroughly and diligently you clean your records, there will always be that occasional tick or pop to let you know that you're dealing with a far from ideal playback format.

If you're looking for someone to talk you into vinyl, I'm not your guy. I wouldn't even recommend CDs anymore (or SACD's , DVDs, etc.) - they are so last century! Just get a nice network storage system and download hi-rez music or better yet, wait a few months and someone will have all the hi-rez you want on a cloud and you can just pipe it through a nice DAC and be done with it. The convenience of digital is just too hard to argue with these days.

Having said all that, I mainly use my NAS/network player for background music when I work and entertain and to warm up my system. When I actually sit down and listen to music, its almost always coming from my TT. For all its downsides, vinyl offers me the most intimate and emotional connection to music through my system and for that, I'm willing to put up with it all...even those pesky pops.

This post hits the nail on the head! Bravo!!

I can tell you on my system I can play records and cd's of the same material, and you will know when a record is being played, and it has nothing to do with clicks and pops, hiss, wow and flutter, or any of the other vinyl maladies. It just sounds a whole heck of a lot better. Vinyl being played in my room just sucks you in. You are compelled to sit down and just listen to it.I have never felt that way when playing cd's.

Having said that, I have some fantastic sounding DVD-A's, and I feel compelled to sit and listen to them as well. I wish there was more material I liked in that format but unfortunately there is not.

Mike

[seti]

Once CD's are close to 50 years old we will see on the average how many are playable. I've run into several cds lately that skip and won't play through leaving some of my favorite songs unplayable. If you get rough vinyl it will usually play through although with some noise however cds just skip their brains out. Surface noise and clicks versus un lis lis lis li ten ten ten able able able able able c c c c c d d d d d s s s s s.

A couple years ago I bought a 10 inch Hank Williams record from 1950. It is not clean and I do wish it was. However there is something I like about a little surface noise and pop on this record it adds to the atmosphere. It indeed is old timey sounding and I like it. I would still prefer a clean copy but it doesn't ruin it for me.

I believe alot of people thrashing vinyl have setup a turntable perhaps improperly then go to goodwill for a nice selection and then wonder why the have clicks pops and scratchs and noise. Buy new vinyl like they did in th glory days of hi-fi. The majority of my vinyl purchases lately have been all new bright shiny unscratched virgin vinyl and it couldn't sound better. I have a couple of the same selections on vinyl as I have on CD. You can switch sources and you can not tell which is which. This is something I first had demonstrated at the Kaisers house and it was a real eye opener.

This is a new triple record set and it is killer. Not abit of surface noise at all. As long as it is kept clean and played on a good needle it should stay that way.

When I had an improperly setup turntable and phono stage I was plagued with noise feedback hum and many ailments talked about in this thread. At one point I couldn't walk across the room without the needle leaving a groove. I'm not saying vinyl is perfect but it must be setup correctly. Then I Iucked into a garrard 301 and I bought a long tonearm with a budget cart. I did my research and read what it takes to setup a turntable properly. Then I built a plinth and put it all together. I bought a George Wright phono pre which compensates for that rolled off bass. I'm not positive how he did this but I know he did. This was something that always bothered George Wright about phono setups. Now with a properly setup turntable I've had partys with the music up loud with out issues and girls dancing in my music room with no needles leaving the groove. Records that had issues before are now playable. It is amazing what is possible when you do your homework and have it setup right. I never thought I would be able to listen to good vinyl playback in my room so this is cool. Since getting all this setup I've spent more money on new music and spent less time tweaking my gear which is very cool. Was it worth working through all these issues to get to where I am as far as vinyl playback...... YES. Was it plug and play..... No.

Here is a mint copy of Mingus Mingus Mingus...... Good stuff.

Also why limit your self on playback. I do cd records tape and digital. Sometimes there is muisc available on records that never made it to cds. There is alot of great music out there. Play it all.