Implementing an External Amp

[johnnydrama]

I've been throwing this idea around for awhile now. Please reference my system in my signature and let me know some positive and negatives if I were to implement an external amp? My H/K has preouts. I've never done separates, always just a receiver. I was leaning towards the UPA-500. Thanks guys!

Edited January 6, 2014 by johnnydrama

[Youthman]

Positives:
I've owned 3 amps: Parasound HCA2205a (220 x 5), Acurus A200 (200 x 2) and a Sherbourn 72100a amp (200 x 7). Moving from a receiver to an external amp added more bottom end, better separation of musical instruments, added clarity and additional headroom to prevent clipping which allows you to drive the speakers at very high volume without sounding harsh and breaking up.

Negatives:
Only "negative" I can see in adding an external amp is it requires an additional space in your rack, entertainment center etc and it's an additional cost. But I can't really consider either of those negative.

Honestly, when I went from a Yamaha RX-V1800 (130 x 7) and added my first external amp (Parasound HCA2205a @ 220 x 5), it was a nice improvement but it was not night and day. Definitely noticable, especially added bass even at lower volumes. Before I had to really crank my receiver to get bass and adding the Parasound I didn't have to do that.

It's my understanding that some amps have more bottom end than others due to the size of the transformer and capacitors that they use. Willland can probably explain that better than I can. I don't know if the UPA-500 would have the same punch as a 200 watt/ch amp would.

[SuBXeRo]

Chances are that your HK puts out enough wattage for those speakers. They aren't very big and despite their lower efficiency, they still recommend only 50 watts RMS with 200 watts peak. I think you may notice more detail if anything but that could be just critical listening. I think mostly it will be a lateral shift. Its worth a try though! Its pretty affordable and comes with a trial period.

BTW, how do you like your dayton ultimax upgrade? i was looking at those for a sonosub i was going to do but never did.

[Shakeydeal]

_{A separate amplifier will sound better than a receiver in most every case. A receiver should be viewed as a utilitarian convenience device that gets the job done with not much thought regarding sound quality. Think about it this way.}

_{5 (or more) channels of amplification}

_{A preamp and/or processor}

_{A tuner}

_{All housed in a chasis weighing the same or less than a quality two channel amplifier. Physics dictate that performance will suffer.}

_{That said, remember that the preamplifier in a system contributes greatly to the end result. You will still be somewhat hamstrung by the preamp section of your HK receiver. But I still think you will improve the sound by going to an outboard amp.}

[ClaudeJ1]

_{A separate amplifier will sound better than a receiver in most every case. A receiver should be viewed as a utilitarian convenience device that gets the job done with not much thought regarding sound quality. Think about it this way.}

_{5 (or more) channels of amplification}

_{A preamp and/or processor}

_{A tuner}

_{All housed in a chasis weighing the same or less than a quality two channel amplifier. Physics dictate that performance will suffer.}

_{That said, remember that the preamplifier in a system contributes greatly to the end result. You will still be somewhat hamstrung by the preamp section of your HK receiver. But I still think you will improve the sound by going to an outboard amp.}

I disagree with the notion of your first comment. It's hard to beat the synergy and low noise of integrated amplifiers, all other things being equal (which they seldom are). In the case of Onkyo, their WRAT amplifier is first class. Very fast and detailed. It drives my K-402/K1133 Horns beautifully and in a noiseless fashion. The only time your comment has validity is when you need more POWER to drive direct radiators (10-100 times more). Since I only use about 10--30 Milliwatts though 8 ohms, the receiver's 100W/ch power section is overkill for an all horn system. I then use the same speaker output to drive my digital Xover for max voltage input before PEQ. the output of that goes to a Lepai 2020 Tripath Chip amp (about 6W on a good day) to my LaScala-like woofer section and I only paid $26 for it. The only reason I do that is because the woofer has a different sensitivity and needs more voltage at it's input to balance against the passive top end. It's hard to beat an integrated amplifier with separates, unless you need more BEEF, but that is NOT always the case, as you suggest. Horn woofers and mids don't need the kind of power you speak of.

I have owned and used McIntosh, Marantz, Scott, Harman Kardon Citation II, McIntosh, and Dynaco tube amps. Also the following SS: Dynaco, Crown, Hafler, VSP Labs (designed the power supply for it), Adcom, Bryston, and Carver. Even I have to admit they all sound a little "different" but not necessarily better.

So, your term "most" would be true simply because "most" people to not have the cash, space, or nads (anti WAF) to use HORN woofer and Subwoofers in their home. The most IM distortion comes from the area where cones move the most, which is the BASS section. YET 99% of people, even Klipsch Heads insist on having Direct Radiator bass, where the greatest distortion and POWER DEMAND exists. A tweeter moves the least and creates the least distortion, yet that is the first place people put a horn. Backwards thinking if you ask me, AND it requires MORE POWER to do, hence the external amplifier requirements.

Edited January 6, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[iRONic]

Well said, Claude.

[derrickdj1]

I am in the camp with Youthman, your speakers paired with the right amp will sound better. Increase transients, clarity and a better bottom end. I don't think the size of the speakers matter much. I had a 200 watt amp on speakers rated 50-200 watts and they worked great together.

Edited January 6, 2014 by derrickdj1

[holtrp]

Not to turn this into an echo chamber, but I have never heard a system that did not benefit from a separate amp, the clarity gained is definitely worth it. The difference isn't as pronounced as say MP3 vs CD audio quality, but it is close. I did plenty of A/B comparison when I bought my first emotiva, and the best way I can put it is that running through a modern receiver, regardless of brand, always seems to produce a "compressed" sound. Adding a separate should open it up tremendously for you.

[CECAA850]

The only time your comment has validity is when you need more POWER to drive direct radiators (10-100 times more). Since I only use about 10--30 Milliwatts though 8 ohms, the receiver's 100W/ch power section is overkill for an all horn system.

Very few here have systems without at least a few direct radiators. I believe the OP has Icons.

[Schu]

separation is what you will gain for sure... depending on amplifier, you will also gain some resolution and clarity.

I dont really see any negatives from do it except the expense and the fact you you will say to yourself... "I should have gone with separates and a processor before I spent money on this AVR"

[Heritage_Head]

Chances are that your HK puts out enough wattage for those speakers. They aren't very big and despite their lower efficiency, they still recommend only 50 watts RMS with 200 watts peak. I think you may notice more detail if anything but that could be just critical listening. I think mostly it will be a lateral shift. Its worth a try though! Its pretty affordable and comes with a trial period.

BTW, how do you like your dayton ultimax upgrade? i was looking at those for a sonosub i was going to do but never did.

As much as i support amps i have to agree. With this set up i think the money could be used for something else that would be more noticeable. That said if you plan to upgrade your speakers some day then it would set you up for that. And like others have said it can't hurt.

[Shakeydeal]

Chances are that your HK puts out enough wattage for those speakers. They aren't very big and despite their lower efficiency, they still recommend only 50 watts RMS with 200 watts peak. I think you may notice more detail if anything but that could be just critical listening. I think mostly it will be a lateral shift. Its worth a try though! Its pretty affordable and comes with a trial period.

BTW, how do you like your dayton ultimax upgrade? i was looking at those for a sonosub i was going to do but never did.

As much as i support amps i have to agree. With this set up i think the money could be used for something else that would be more noticeable. That said if you plan to upgrade your speakers some day then it would set you up for that. And like others have said it can't hurt.

If the system is used primarily for movies, I would agree. Music, OTOH, demands something more than a receiver.

Shakey

[jason str]

I see in your sig you modded your Klipsch Sub 12 with a Dayton Ultimax 12 driver. Did you remove the port and seal the cabinet ? That driver needs a much bigger cabinet if its still ported.

I have heard receivers that sound better than separates and vice versa.

You have nothing to lose except some hard earned cash trying out an external amp, if nothing else it will take the strain off your receiver's power supply.

[joessportster]

looks like your trading apples for apples, HK=7 X 75 wpc, Emotive upa 500= 5 X 80 into 8 OHMS...........point being if you really want to upgrade your system ie...gain headroom, clarity, seperation ETC... I think you want to look at a better amp. Forget what your speakers are rated at ie 50wpc contin. 200 wpc peak. the volume knob settles that issue. Bottom line is more power = more headroom.............Better design / topology = better sound, seperation, and clarity

Just my Opinion from my experience with DOZENS of systems

Joe

[johnnydrama]

Chances are that your HK puts out enough wattage for those speakers. They aren't very big and despite their lower efficiency, they still recommend only 50 watts RMS with 200 watts peak. I think you may notice more detail if anything but that could be just critical listening. I think mostly it will be a lateral shift. Its worth a try though! Its pretty affordable and comes with a trial period.

BTW, how do you like your dayton ultimax upgrade? i was looking at those for a sonosub i was going to do but never did.

I see in your sig you modded your Klipsch Sub 12 with a Dayton Ultimax 12 driver. Did you remove the port and seal the cabinet ? That driver needs a much bigger cabinet if its still ported.

I have heard receivers that sound better than separates and vice versa.

You have nothing to lose except some hard earned cash trying out an external amp, if nothing else it will take the strain off your receiver's power supply.

Thanks for all of the replies gentlemen, I appreciate all of your opinions. For simplicity I will probably stick with an AVR for now and implement separates in my next home where I will have a dedicated theater space.

I have substituted the driver in my Sub-12 with the 12" Dayton Ultimax. And yes I removed the port, added bracing, and some polystuff. The result was very positive and I'm extremely happy with the outcome. I intend to replace the 300w Bash amp w/ the 500w soon. I'm itching to build a new cabinet all together for the driver to show off it's beauty, it's a perfect match for my Icon X line. I've designed a cabinet that will match beautifully as well. Cosmetics are extremely important to me. However I'm holding off due to a 2 year old and 10 month old. Hence why I don't have towers either. So the down firing Sub-12 was the right choice my circumstances as of now. Besides I like the look of the Sub-12, and I refinished the cabinet to a flat black and the trim pieces to a gloss black to match the Icon X's as well. However, it was a pretty modest performer, volume was pretty good but was a bit of a one hit wonder. Performs much better now and I've always preferred sealed vs. ported as well. I call it my "Synergy Sleeper Sub-12".

[ClaudeJ1]

looks like your trading apples for apples, HK=7 X 75 wpc, Emotive upa 500= 5 X 80 into 8 OHMS...........point being if you really want to upgrade your system ie...gain headroom, clarity, seperation ETC... I think you want to look at a better amp. Forget what your speakers are rated at ie 50wpc contin. 200 wpc peak. the volume knob settles that issue. Bottom line is more power = more headroom.............Better design / topology = better sound, seperation, and clarity

Just my Opinion from my experience with DOZENS of systems

Joe

I don't disagree with your or the others here, Joe.

Did the more power/headroom thing before I got Khorns. I used 500 WPC on my 4 DIY big Altecs (20 cubic foot boxes when I was 19) I used to crank those puppies up fed by my Crown reel to reel though a McIntosh C-26 Pre Amp> I played music for 600 people at college parties. Got Khorns brand new at 23 years old out of college and recently married. Designed and built a peak power meter and and hitting 10W peaks though a Khorn was too frikkin' loud. Even to a DB freak like me that use to fix amps for my garage band buddies. So I downsized my power and improved my sound at that time.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirts. Truth is the best direct radiator drivers have less than 90 db per watt of efficiency, while the best horns can hit 110 db/watt. So a 20 db differential is 100 times the power requirement. So, go big or go home.

Only about 1% of people are willing to buy or build big bass horns to REDUCE their power consumption and distortion. The problem with big bass horns is that they require digital time delay to work well. So people prefer to use more power because power is cheap nowadays. It's totally understandable. I was just pointing out that it doesn't always result in better sound, just different sound, like when I went from bad solid state to good tubes. Now that all modern SS amps are good (more or less), it's hard to go wrong, but there are always trade-offs.

Based on my engineering experiences, there is more than one way to create EXCELLENT sound today. We have many choices and it's really good to have those choices. Other than potentially greater noise, more watts doesn't always get you better sound, but it's hard to get a bad amplifier today, so it's never money wasted if you buy it right.

[ClaudeJ1]

I am in the camp with Youthman, your speakers paired with the right amp will sound better. Increase transients, clarity and a better bottom end. I don't think the size of the speakers matter much. I had a 200 watt amp on speakers rated 50-200 watts and they worked great together.

Look up Hoffman's Law and you just might change your mind. But it all depends on how loud you play and how much DISTORTION you can tolerate or get used to. I have heard great sound from direct radiators, but after listening critically, I can hear the extra distortion since I'm spoiled by the ridiculously low distortion of big horns on everything. Heck my tweeters are bigger than most recording studio's WOOFERS since they all seem to use these little 2-way boxes to mix with.

[derrickdj1]

Look up Hoffman's Law

I agree with Hoffman's Law. We can't have everything. But, we can make the best of what we do have. I am in the camp that most amp will sound the same but, I have personally obsereved that some amps sound better with a particular speaker which I attribute to their design. A goood amp certainly won't make the OP speakers sound worse, lol. A bigger change in SQ will come from a different speakers but, he wants to use what he already has. You Heritage guys,lol.

Edited January 7, 2014 by derrickdj1

[Scrappydue]

A receiver should be viewed as a utilitarian convenience device that gets the job done with not much thought regarding sound quality.

so people that spend 2 grand on a nice anthem receiver aren't thinking about sound quality?

[Shakeydeal]

An Anthem receiver will sound ok, and it is better than most. But I can put together a tube amp and decent preamp for that much or less and get better sound. No, you won't get 5 channels of car crashes and dinosaur stomping fun, but you will get better sounding music.

It's all about choices and priorities, as I have said many times here.

Shakey