Klipschorn vs La Scala

[tromprof]

Btw,…….(but you don't need to spend anywhere near 2 thousand more to get a pair)……that's used, of course. New I believe are anywhere from $7,500 to $9,000 (which is list price).

True. But I prefer to let someone use them for a couple of decades and break them in for me.

[Marvel]

How so? The mids and tweeters are the same distance apart with the Khorn or Lascala. The Khorn woofer is about 4 msec. behind the mid driver but the Lascala woofer is only about 1 msec. behind the mid.

I should have been clearer. The difference for both speakers is more critical between the mid and tweeter than the woofer and mid. The shorter wavelengths make it so. The lower freq. of the bass to mids, while also important, aren't as noticeable. And, as Chris pointed out, you can fix the mid/tweeter problem very easily and inexpensively while retaining passive crossovers.

Bruce

[ClaudeJ1]

On 3/5/2014 at 11:45 AM, Don Richard said:

Lascalas have the advantage that they don't need corners. There is less of a time alignment issue between the woofer and midrange with the Lascalas. Lascalas with the right subwoofer are a potent combination and will usually outperform Khorns if set up properly, i.e. biamped. Lascalas are cheaper.

Having owned both Khorns and LaScalas for over 30 years, soundwise, it is better to get LaScalas and a good Subwoofer if you have the floor space. Khorns use up less floor space, but with a little PEQ, may not need a sub, altough LaScalas with sub will outperform a Khorn, especially with a Tuba or Tapped Horn sub.

[Boxx]

Klipschorn has lower bass response but La Scala will have cleaner midbass that's more realistic, its a tradeoff.

I prefer La Scala with a horn loaded subwoofer to get the best of both worlds.

This is actually an interesting observation - and the majority reason why PWK decided to "refresh" the design of the Khorn bass bin with help of Roy Delgado. The result was the Klipsch Jubilee bass bin, and Roy went on to design the excellent K-402 mf/hf horn. The results speak for themselves. PWK designated the new creation the "Jubilee" in order to recognize this performance improvement difference, a significant improvement greater than just a "product-improved Khorn II".

Note that the La Scala and the Khorn basically have identical midranges and tweeters, and really not much difference in passive crossover networks. The Khorn and the La Scala will improve their imaging performance dramatically if you remove the tweeters from inside their cabinets and place in a small baffle on top of the speaker, thus facilitating the tweeter to move toward the back of the cabinet to time align the driver/horn with the midrange horn below it. This isn't a trivial increase in performance but it is a simple and inexpensive mod that is easily reversible.

The time delay on the bass bin of Khorn (about 4.8 ms relative to the midrange horn/driver) is actually quite large, and correcting this delay using a digital active crossover to delay the midrange/tweeter section by this amount will eliminate many problems that others here seem to attribute to other factors. YMMV.

The La Scala bass bin time delay is roughly half that of the Khorn's bass bin, due entirely to the shorter path length of the La Scala bass bin. The Khorn bass bin reproduces an additional octave below that which the La Scala can reproduce - and it does this very, very cleanly, unlike direct-radiating subwoofers. The time delay in the La Scala bass bin should also be corrected, but it isn't as noticeable as the time misalignment of the Khorn bass bin.

Note that for the price of a good horn-loaded subwoofer and driving electronics and network to split the LF band from the La Scala bass bin channels, you could easily own a digital active crossover of high quality with a pair of Khorns to not only do delay correction but also do much better in-room EQ to tame the room modes and also the lumps in performance response of the Khorn bass bin.

If you don't own two good room corners, then the La Scalas are typically used, except that you can also use false corners with Khorns to place them almost anywhere also (which are cheap and relatively easy to fabricate - Klipsch has the instructions on how to build them). Note that Khorns in false corners are not nearly as small as La Scalas, however. Your choice - pick your poison.

YMMV. If anything in the above discussion isn't clear, please let me know.

Chris

Well said.... Thanks...

[ClaudeJ1]

There is less of a time alignment issue between the woofer and midrange with the Lascalas.

More of an issue with the time alignment between the mid and tweeter that the woofer and mid.

Bruce

How so? The mids and tweeters are the same distance apart with the Khorn or Lascala. The Khorn woofer is about 4 msec. behind the mid driver but the Lascala woofer is only about 1 msec. behind the mid.

Once again, you are right. This may be the reason why people prefer the LaScala. Some are more sensitive to time delays than others, which would make a Khorn unacceptable. 1 ms is hard to detect.

[Schu]

original troll post has worked... look at some of these responses.

[babadono]

This is actually an interesting observation - and the majority reason why PWK decided to "refresh" the design of the Khorn bass bin with help of Roy Delgado. The result was the Klipsch Jubilee bass bin, and Roy went on to design the excellent K-402 mf/hf horn. The results speak for themselves. PWK designated the new creation the "Jubilee" in order to recognize this performance improvement difference, a significant improvement greater than just a "product-improved Khorn II".

Chris,

I thought the "Jubilee" was to be 50th anniversary addition to the KHorn line. Excuse my ignorance.

[Max2]

Having owned both Khorns and LaScalas for over 30 years, soundwise, it is better to get LaScalas and a good Subwoofer if you have the floor space. Khorns use up less floor space, but with a little PEQ, my not need a sub, altough LaScalas with sub will outperform a Khorn, expecially with a Tuba or Tapped Horn sub.

Are you saying the time difference is why the LS will outperform the K or adding the sub will simply let the LS and the sub have a better frequency range?

[Chris A]

This is actually an interesting observation - and the majority reason why PWK decided to "refresh" the design of the Khorn bass bin with help of Roy Delgado. The result was the Klipsch Jubilee bass bin, and Roy went on to design the excellent K-402 mf/hf horn. The results speak for themselves. PWK designated the new creation the "Jubilee" in order to recognize this performance improvement difference, a significant improvement greater than just a "product-improved Khorn II".

Chris,

I thought the "Jubilee" was to be 50th anniversary addition to the KHorn line. Excuse my ignorance.

See https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-12368-0-16300000-1386896650.jpg, about halfway down the page.

[001]

what does YMMV mean? i love how people use all these abbreviations today, the majority of people have no clue what they mean.

"Your mileage may vary" - a euphemism used to indicate that others can and will disagree based on their particular experiences at home in their particular abodes.

ah, gotcha. i understand the euphemism & have heard it many times... the abbbreviation however is new to me & im sure many others that are not hip to the current jargon the kids use these days. & most would consider me a "kid" & i have been using the internet since the mid 90's & quite familiar with texting lingo & social media stuff... but all the recent abbreviations can get a little ridiculous when the majority of people have no idea what they mean. to use them & assume people know them can make reading some posts difficult to say the least. ykwim?

[garyrc]

Are the Klipschorn's really that much better then the La Scala's?

The Klipschorns sound "fuller," with better bass -- in general -- below about 60 Hz. In the various rooms I've had ours in the Khorn bass has been great to 40 Hz, and good to 35 or 30, depending on room (proportions?) listening positions, etc. In my current room bass can be measured to 24 Hz with the Khorns, and it's pretty claen down there, but it is much softer than at 40 Hz. The grand climaxes at the top of the dynamic range tend to sound better on the Khorns, IMO, perhaps because of better balance of bass to treble.

With both La Scala & Khorn, the room makes a great difference, as does the listening position. Khorns must be sealed into a corner (or artificial corner).

In the old days, when there were about 8 Klipsch Heritage dealers in the S.F. Bay area, I often listened to both speakers in the same showroom, and the La Scala tended to sound harsh more often.

I have a Belle Klipsch center. The Belle was sold as sounding like the La Scala, but looking better. The Belle does sound worse than our Khorns ("smaller," less earth-moving), but not bad at all. The mid horn is longer in the La Scala.

The La Scala II got pretty much a rave review in Stereophile a few years ago. Some people on this forum reported that the II sounded like it had better bass than the older La Scala, and speculated that it did because it has thicker wood than the older La Scala. If I were to get a pair, I'd get a II.

I see you posted this on the two channel forum, so you probably listen mostly to music, not movies, right? For movies you need a subwoofer to hear something close to what the filmmakers intended, especially with a La Scala. Almost no sub will sound as precise as either La Scala or Klipschorn, unless it is a horn subwoofer ... and there are a few out there (Tuba, and a brand new one by Klipsch).

Oh, Klipschorns are said to work better with a thick rug and, especially, a high ceiling. I first heard this in a review by Heyser in Audio. More recently, the Klipsch company has suggested that a ceiling at least 8.5 feet high would be best. OTOH, Artto's Klipschorn Room (see on this forum). Has a ceiling slightly lower than 8 feet. See Cask 05 on this forum on Corner Horns, for good absorbtion advice. (Cask may be going by the name Chris on this new iteration of the forum -- it looks like the same dog in the logo photo.) Corner Horn Imaging FAQ

Edited March 9, 2014 by Garyrc

[Chris A]

http://www.internetslang.com/list.asp?i=all&ModPagespeed=noscript

It's like learning another language.

[Don Richard]

Are you saying the time difference is why the LS will outperform the K or adding the sub will simply let the LS and the sub have a better frequency range?

The combination of both. Though the Lascala's bass and mids are not precisely time aligned they are close enough to get coherent summation. When used with a horn loaded biamped subwoofer that is also aligned to the woofer in the Lascala, along with a tweeter that can be moved to time align it to the mid driver, you wind up with a very good loudspeaker system that can reproduce just about anything you throw at it.

[Islander]

http://www.internetslang.com/list.asp?i=all&ModPagespeed=noscript

It's like learning another language.

Then there's Leet/L33t, but that's another story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet

[Turbox]

Klipschorn has lower bass response but LaScala will have cleaner midbass that's more realistic, its a tradeoff.

I prefer LaScala with a horn loaded subwoofer to get the best of both worlds.

Im with Jason str

[Max2]

Are you saying the time difference is why the LS will outperform the K or adding the sub will simply let the LS and the sub have a better frequency range?

The combination of both. Though the Lascala's bass and mids are not precisely time aligned they are close enough to get coherent summation. When used with a horn loaded biamped subwoofer that is also aligned to the woofer in the Lascala, along with a tweeter that can be moved to time align it to the mid driver, you wind up with a very good loudspeaker system that can reproduce just about anything you throw at it.

Thanks for the info. I never knew the K's were considered this flawed from a timing issue. So are you saying you have to put a different tweeter on top of the LS and use a horn loaded sub crossed to where the LS's low end falls off?

[s3steve]

Thanks to all those that contributed to the thread, some very informintive replies!

Btw,…….(but you don't need to spend anywhere near 2 thousand more to get a pair)……that's used, of course. New I believe are anywhere from $7,500 to $9,000 (which is list price).

My pricing was based on MSRP in Canada, to much varation on pricing in used sets. Of course used is the way to go.

Klipschorn has lower bass response but LaScala will have cleaner midbass that's more realistic, its a tradeoff.

I prefer LaScala with a horn loaded subwoofer to get the best of both worlds.

Im with Jason str

At this point I'm leaning toward the La Sacla with a horn loaded sub.

Any suggestions on a sub?

[Marvel]

So are you saying you have to put a different tweeter on top of the LS and use a horn loaded sub crossed to where the LS's low end falls off?

I don't use a sub, but I placed tweeters in small baffles on top of my LS cabs, placed at the back so they are aligned with the K55 drivers. This will work with the K77 tweeters, but I used some Eminence drivers on a different horn. The drivers are APT50s, the same as the ones Bob Crites sells.

You can see pics here (although I take some of the other cabinet decor down while listening).

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/147468-into-the-newer-house/?hl=marvel#entry1677243

Bruce

[jason str]

Thanks to all those that contributed to the thread, some very informintive replies!

Btw,…….(but you don't need to spend anywhere near 2 thousand more to get a pair)……that's used, of course. New I believe are anywhere from $7,500 to $9,000 (which is list price).

My pricing was based on MSRP in Canada, to much varation on pricing in used sets. Of course used is the way to go.

Klipschorn has lower bass response but LaScala will have cleaner midbass that's more realistic, its a tradeoff.

I prefer LaScala with a horn loaded subwoofer to get the best of both worlds.

Im with Jason str

At this point I'm leaning toward the La Sacla with a horn loaded sub.

Any suggestions on a sub?

Tuba home theater (THT) will be your best choice, same efficiency and fully horn loaded design will be the best match or if you have the $$$ and the space there is a horn loaded Klipsch model but its bigger than 2 full size THT's. Tapped horn or dual 8" loaded Table Tuba would be a good substitute.

Edited March 6, 2014 by jason str

[Max2]

So are you saying you have to put a different tweeter on top of the LS and use a horn loaded sub crossed to where the LS's low end falls off?

I don't use a sub, but I placed tweeters in small baffles on top of my LS cabs, placed at the back so they are aligned with the K55 drivers. This will work with the K77 tweeters, but I used some Eminence drivers on a different horn. The drivers are APT50s, the same as the ones Bob Crites sells.

You can see pics here (although I take some of the other cabinet decor down while listening).

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/147468-into-the-newer-house/?hl=marvel#entry1677243

Bruce

Oh, Im following you now. I was thinking active X-over amps, Bi amping, EQing and all that to sort out the timing. That doesn't look bad at all and I bet there is a benefit in sound having the tweeter higher as well.