Realism Check

[ClaudeJ1]

This is why modern surround sound is far superior to stereo IMO. In the end it is still a Playboy centerfold. No matter how how stimulating, it ain't as good as the real thing.

 

 

As a pro photographer who has taught "Playboy lighting" to others after studying with a Penthouse/Playboy veteran photographer, I agree with you. Even if the real thing is in front of you, you can't touch it. But it's a great analogy nonetheless. Yes, and the word "analogy" is a derivative of "analog."

[Marvel]

This same friend has a CD recording of the same work transcribed digitally to a modern Yamaha Grand and recorded with modern microphones. He said the recording played back on his system sucked compared to listening the the original reproducing piano.

A good recording of the original 'player' piano would likely sound much better than the Yamaha Grand. The timbre, attack and tone would be totally different between the two instruments. It isn't the fualt of the Yamaha, but the difference in the environment. I would think this would be obvious.

 

Bruce

[derrickdj1]

Illusion or not, one of the things I find that help the feel of realism is soundstage.  Spreading out the the monitors for 2 ch and spreading out the surrounds for SACD allows for better spatial cues, airyness of the instruments and better separation of everything.

Edited October 2, 2014 by derrickdj1

[Dr Morbius]

Wild music there, but I would have loved to hear the Gershwin roll.

[JBryan]

"Is it live or is it Memorex?"...it was Memorex, it was always Memorex - we all knew and still know it. We just close our eyes and believe.  

 

If you think its hard recreating a chamber orchestra in your listening room, go see a chamber orchestra and try to make it sound like your listening room.

[tromprof]

 

"Is it live or is it Memorex?"...it was Memorex, it was always Memorex - we all knew and still know it. We just close our eyes and believe.  

 

If you think its hard recreating a chamber orchestra in your listening room, go see a chamber orchestra and try to make it sound like your listening room.

 

 

One of the hard if not impossible tasks of recording and reproducing the sound of an orchestra is the effect that a hall has on the sound of the ensemble. The orchestra I play in plays in a modern acoustic gem of a hall that cost well over 100 million dollars to build. No sound system can reproduce the sound that an orchestra gets in that kind of environment, not to mention the challenges faced in recording an orchestra to begin with. That is why I think the most satisfying recordings are usually of small groups. Well done studio stuff esp. can sound good reproduced over a good sound system because the performance was always intended for that medium.

[Chris A]

No matter how how stimulating, it ain't as good as the real thing.

 

See https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/155096-the-missing-octaves-audacity-remastering-to-restore-tracks/?p=1912316

[jacksonbart]

I am still in reality, check

[Dr Morbius]

Checkmate!

[oldtimer]

Wild music there, but I would have loved to hear the Gershwin roll.

I was in an orchestra that played along with a Gershwin roll.  Interesting and challenging.

[mark1101]

^{I agree with an earlier post that PWK must have meant acoustic live sound...........the sound of the instrument being played right in front of you with no amplification.}

 

^{When I go to see live music, it's always the sound of the amps and/or PA that you hear.}

 

^{I will say that our home audio systems definitely can reproduce that with close authenticity, depending on what you put together for a system, and your room.}

 

^{Replicating the live piano or other live instruments with no amplification, and at fairly close range............Yeah, much more difficult to reproduce the "life" of all that.}

[Bubo]

My best friend and fellow audiophile went up north to a museum. They had an old fashioned (mechanical roll type) reproducing piano from the 20's. They had a roll that featured George Gershwin performing a piano duet with himself using this device, obviously performing his own composition. He said he was blown away by how great it sounded. Just like he was right there doing it long after his death.

 

This same friend has a CD recording of the same work transcribed digitally to a modern Yamaha Grand and recorded with modern microphones. He said the recording played back on his system sucked compared to listening the the original reproducing piano.

 

I can see why PWK advocated going out to listen to live acoustic instruments (in his case, symphony orchestras).

 

The best our audio systems can do is give us an ILLUSION of the real thing, but it's not even close.

 

So I can admire PWK's goal of trying to get as close as possible to the "real thing," which is a live acoustic performance and NOT comparison to another speaker.

 

Last year I had a friend over to listen to my gear MAC + LaScala.

 

He is a professional musician who has played A list and performed in large arenas, he is also a voice over for ads you have seen and is a voice and piano teacher.

 

He impression listening to George Winston was that my rig sounded exactly like sitting on the bench of a grand piano when you are playing the instrument. Where the mic is positioned does effect the recording. Anyway, the reproduction blew him away, he is no Winston but did buy December on vinyl and Cd after leaving my house.

 

Female voice is also hard to reproduce, and easy to know if it's natural.

 

Ronstadt Skylark is always a good fast test for a system even though she likes the reverb.

 

Noemi Wolfs, formerly Hooverphonic, is always a good test, I have to figure out how to download this one since it's not available for purchase. My Keyboard friend believes both the piano player and Wolfs are A list, which in fact they are.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Bs09twUmg&index=6&list=PLgugWBANrQyU39SWyIM6sCIJWo-A3GBlD

 

Pretty sure Piano requires lots of ready power reserves with vertical rises and decays.

[Chris A]

listening to George Winston was that my rig sounded exactly like sitting on the bench of a grand piano when you are playing the instrument. Where the mic is positioned does effect the recording.

 

 

I just re-EQed the first cut of Winston's December album ("Thanksgiving")...here is the curve that I used, along with running notch filters at 19 and 38 Hz:

 

[muel]

 

listening to George Winston was that my rig sounded exactly like sitting on the bench of a grand piano when you are playing the instrument. Where the mic is positioned does effect the recording.

 

 

I just re-EQed the first cut of Winston's December album ("Thanksgiving")...here is the curve that I used, along with running notch filters at 19 and 38 Hz:

 

Thanksgiving EQ curve - Winston.gif

 

Ohh that's a good one!  I like all of his seasons for that matter.

[artto]

It seems like most live music now, even orchestral music, is augmented with mics and speakers.  Acoustics of the theater certainly come into play, but I wonder how much we lose by the added amplification and processing of even live performances these days.

With "acoustical" music, in concert halls with excellent acoustics (old or new), the sound system you see is usually not used for live performance. If you see microphones on stage or hanging above the performers, these are almost always being used for recording, otherwise for P.A. purposes to make announcements and such. OTOH, if you're attending a non-professional event, where the vocal soloists for instance need more volume (because they can't/don't project their voice as well as a pro would), then yes, you might have the soloist being reinforced through the P.A. (which personally I hate).

 

As far as I'm concerned, if any sound reinforcement has to be used in a concert hall for (professional) acoustical performances, of any type or size, then the hall's acoustical properties are compromised in one or more respects.

[artto]

 

No matter how how stimulating, it ain't as good as the real thing.

 

See https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/155096-the-missing-octaves-audacity-remastering-to-restore-tracks/?p=1912316

 

That's because there is usually more "energy" in a live performance, especially in music which embodies a lot of improvisation. That "energy" almost never comes across in recording. And with multi-track being used the way it usually is, indeed, how could it (have that energy - they're not even playing/singing all of the parts at the same time!).

 

Example: At the 2014 Chicago Jazz Festival I heard Dave Holland's band play their recent release "Prism". An absolutely amazing performance. Consequently I bought the CD. If I hadn't heard them live first, I would have thought the CD was great. But having heard this live first, the CD seemed like a let down. It just doesn't have the same level of energy and improvisation that the live performance has/allows. And of course, if you're recording live-in-concert, that opens up a whole new range of challenges for the recording engineer, not the least of which (unfortunately) is called the budget.

Edited August 16, 2015 by artto

[artto]

 

listening to George Winston was that my rig sounded exactly like sitting on the bench of a grand piano when you are playing the instrument. Where the mic is positioned does effect the recording.

 

 

I just re-EQed the first cut of Winston's December album ("Thanksgiving")...here is the curve that I used, along with running notch filters at 19 and 38 Hz:

 

Thanksgiving EQ curve - Winston.gif

 

One of the things I've been able to implement recently was using Izotope Ozone, which I sometimes use to tweak my own recordings (choral/orchestra/band), and now use this as a DSP plug-in in J River Digital Media Center on playback. This is some amazing software, probably the best I've ever seen in any application. There are maybe 100 presets for all kinds of different musical situations. Or you can modify any of them and save it or make your own. And the graphics can display everything imaginable any way you can imagine. If you make any adjustments you can see/hear the results displayed in real-time, or bypass.

[artto]

 

This is obviously an illusion that we are hearing, and that illusion will be more convincing with better recordings played through better equipment. But it is still an illusion that doesn't sound exactly like the sound that was recorded. And it never will.

 

I agree completely with that notion. Danley Synergy Horns bring us one step closer (at least easier in a smaller package) to that wide band "point source." 

 

Ah, yes. Thanks for mentioning that Claude. I've had my Danley SH50 for almost 3 years now (don't worry Klipsch. I haven't abandoned you completely. Just bought a new pair of RF-7 ii for the HT). I'm still working on optimizing them and the room. Everything has changed from the way the room and equipment mix was with the Khorns/Belle. Even though things are still not as best as they could be, I find that with broadband single-point source linear phase controlled directivity (waveguide) speakers like the SH50, more recordings are "listenable". No more "ear bite". Things that were strident are no longer strident, or at least not nearly as much. Everything is better.

[artto]

 

 

This is obviously an illusion that we are hearing, and that illusion will be more convincing with better recordings played through better equipment. But it is still an illusion that doesn't sound exactly like the sound that was recorded. And it never will.

 

It sounds like what was recorded all right. It's what was recorded that will never sound exactly like the original sound. That is of course, until we figure out how to de-compensate for what the recording has done to the original sound (as we hear/perceive it). It will happen. That's our nature.

[MORE KLIPSCH PLEASE]

Years ago when I lived in Seattle my x-wife drugg me to see a live ballet. This was back in my heavy metal days and wanted no part of some ballet. 

Well she took me to see Tchaikovsky's Nutcraker performed by the Seattle Symphony Orchestra..... talk about a realism check... The show was great the music unreal even for this 24 year old head banger!!! 

Well the next day I went out and hunted for the best recording of the Nutcracker I could find at the time. I found a recording done by the London Symphony Orchestra. I was great recording imho, on the back of the CD it had a warning that speaker damage my occur. It gave two exact times on the CD when caution should be taken with the volume. Well after reading that I knew that was the CD for me lol lol.

I still have this CD and it sounds great on my LaScala's....but It's still not a "live" show. hmmm come to think of it i haven't played that in years.....might have to dig it out...

 

MKP :-)