tlarwa Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I've been running a 2 amp system for a while now with the following amp/speaker combinations: Jazz system - hand built parallel single ended 6s45p amp driving hand built Super Pensil speakers (utilizing the excellent Mark Audio 12p drivers) Rock system - Rebuilt Fisher 400 driving upgraded Forte II's Source is all vinyl ... Marant TT-15S1 table, AT OC9/MLII, Jolida JD9, Khozmo passive pre My room is purpose-built as a listening room, and is ~ 11'6 x 16'. Speakers are located on one of the short end walls. The room is treated with absorbers on the front wall, side walls and ceiling, and super-chunk style bass traps in the corners of the front wall. This is a "live end/dead end" configuration, and seems to work pretty well. A pic of the front wall is attached. Currently my listening position is about 11' from the front wall (after much trial and error). Anyway, while I've been generally happy with the current set up for a year or so now, I'm also interested in a possible upgrade. I've been considering a pair of Klipschorns for a while now, but am not sure how they'll work in a room this size, especially since they'd be positioned on the short wall. My thought would be to run the bass traps from the ceiling to the top of the 'horns (they currently run floor to ceiling) and leave everything else as is. I'd shed the Forte II's and the Super Pensils to help fund the new speakers, so the 'horns would be living alone on the front wall. Thought? Opinions? Concerns? It's a big investment (even used, which they would be) and I don't have the ability to borrow a pair to try them in my room. So I want to make as educated a decision as possible. I appreciate any input. Tom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I think your room is large enough, Not to start a war but I would consider what sound stage means to you ? While I always felt the Khorns were great at presenting a wide soundstage. I was always left feeling short when it came to depth of soundstage I never felt they made the rear wall disappear, I felt like it was because they rely on the wall / corners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEUS121996 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I think if you enclose the back of the Ks and actually toe them out, it gives it a more enveloping sound. So many people avoid them because they don't have perfect corners. They don't need them. You can actually pull them away from the wall if sealed properly. I think that was the idea behind the 60th anniversary, hopefully people (Colter, etc.) with the anniversarys can chime in on this Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Tom, Is your room to small? No, but it is not optimal, Klipschorns want 20 to 24 feet between them to really sing. Is there no possibility for you to rearrange and put them on the long wall? With the factory 45 degree toe in, your room is still deep enough to sit in the sweet spot. Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 My KHorns sit 23 apart with my main seating position about 14 feet back. They sound fantastic at 14 feet but they sound fantastic'er at 18 feet back and really really open up at 22-24 feet away. While they are mighty impressive at 14 feet I would almost consider that "near-field" listening with a KHorn. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I've had Khorns in a room that small in floor plan, but with a high ceiling. They sounded great from a single sweet spot. They also sounded pretty good from down the hall and when listening from other rooms! But, from any position other than the sweet spot --in the room -- the imaging went down hill. If you are the sole listener, you should be able to get them to sound good. That being said ... they sound much better in our current approx. 4,300 cu ft room! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlarwa Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Well, good info all. I don't have the ability to turn my set-up 90 degrees due to doors, etc.. So it sounds like I may be looking at the wrong speaker for my room. Assuming that's the case, what would the logical step up in the Klipsch line be for my situation? Belle, LaScala, Cornwall? I've considered the Cornwall before, but have read many a post about them not being that far up the chain from the Forte II's. All a matter of opinion, of course. I guess my goals are to get rid of the 2 speaker set up and settle on one system that will really excel in jazz and rock. Right now i listen to the Forte II's for everything but acoustical jazz, singer songwriter stuff, etc. That's where the Super Pensils and the PSE amp really shine. Not that the Forte II's sound bad by any means, but I find the single driver system more satisfying for certain music. That said, I'm listening to The Crusaders " I " album right now on the Forte II's, and it's outstanding. Any suggestions? I'm not running a lot of power (the PSE amp is all of 1 1/2 watts), so I am sticking to efficient speakers. And no, I can't afford a pair of Tannoy's! Edited November 9, 2015 by tlarwa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Well, good info all. I don't have the ability to turn my set-up 90 degrees due to doors, etc.. So it sounds like I may be looking at the wrong speaker for my room. Assuming that's the case, what would the logical step up in the Klipsch line be for my situation? Belle, LaScala, Cornwall? I've considered the Cornwall before, but have read many a post about them not being that far up the chain from the Forte II's. All a matter of opinion, of course. I guess my goals are to get rid of the 2 speaker set up and settle on one system that will really excel in jazz and rock. Right now i listen to the Forte II's for everything but acoustical jazz, singer songwriter stuff, etc. That's where the Super Pensils and the PSE amp really shine. Not that the Forte II's sound bad by any means, but I find the single driver system more satisfying for certain music. That said, I'm listening to The Crusaders " I " album right now on the Forte II's, and it's outstanding. Any suggestions? I'm not running a lot of power (the PSE amp is all of 1 1/2 watts), so I am sticking to efficient speakers. And no, I can't afford a pair of Tannoy's! According to the Dope from Hope, if you want 95 dB in a 3,000 cu ft room, (R=200) 0.63 watts will do it with a Khorn, LaScala, or Belle, but you would need more than twice as much (1.8 watts) for a Cornwall. This was in 1977. New Cornwalls may be more or less efficient. Cornwalls also have more frequency modulation distortion, acording to the old data sheets. I'd still consider the Khorns, but, short of that, La Scala II, near the corners, with a sub coming in at about 50 or 60 Hz. The II has thicker walls, and, according to some, better bass, but still doesn't dig very deep. But a II might be good enough to make your acoustical jazz sound good! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I think the LS would sound better in that size room, even if they don't tuck into the corners. They will work fine on the shorter wall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockOn4Klipsch Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) My short wall is similar in length to yours, depth is longer. My concern was similar to yours after reading about the space "requirements". I took the plunge anyways because I wanted a pair and come to find out I was absolutely thrilled with them. They are not ideal in all aspects, imaging isn't pinpoint like my other setups, sound stage could be more coherent. Despite these 'shortcomings' due to room size, they make up by the sheer magnitude of the soundstage and over all toe tapping experience. The sweet spot is limited if you want all the above, which is OK with me because I'm the only one who cares. You can tailor the soundstage and imaging if you'd like by disconnecting the top hat and adjusting the toe in or toe out depending on your needs. Edited November 9, 2015 by RockOn4Klipsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 My room is purpose-built as a listening room, and is ~11'6 x16'. Speakers are located on one of the short end walls... The room is treated with absorbers on the front wall, side walls and ceiling, and super-chunk style bass traps in the corners of the front wall. This is a "live end/dead end" configuration, and seems to work pretty well... Currently my listening position is about 11' from the front wall (after much trial and error)... I've been considering a pair of Klipschorns for a while now, but am not sure how they'll work in a room this size, especially since they'd be positioned on the short wall. My thought would be to run the bass traps from the ceiling to the top of the 'horns (they currently run floor to ceiling) and leave everything else as is. I'd shed the Forte II's and the Super Pensils to help fund the new speakers, so the 'horns would be living alone on the front wall. Thought? Opinions? Concerns?...I appreciate any input. I think that the real issue with Khorns in a room that width is having the speakers so close to your listening position without allowing for the "minimum resolving distance" of their 3-way design. What I've found is that this minimum distance is actually due to time alignment issues of the tweeter-midrange (most audible) and midrange-bass bin (less audible, but affecting midrange tuning fork frequencies around 300-600 Hz). If you're willing to move the Khorn tweeters from the inside of the Khorn cabinets to on top of the Khorns in small baffles to time-align them at the back of their cabinets with the midrange drivers (as shown in the picture below), I believe that you'll find that about 80% of the minimum resolving distance issues will disappear. The Khorn bass issues can be made more manageable by using false corners so that you can point the speakers wherever you want without worrying about 240 Hz "suck out" issues on the frequency response due to unequal mouth size left-right from trying to re-aim the speakers to other than 45 degrees from the side/front walls. It can be done but to get the most out of Khorns, the above two suggestions would probably be key to getting all that you can out of them. The cost to do these two additional modifications is mostly time...and a little woodwork. The results would actually be fairly spectacular, IMO. You could use double-length bass traps, but I wouldn't put them on top of the Khorns since they would likely be too effective there. A better place would be the back corners of the room, or along a ceiling-wall or floor-wall boundary. but double the typical 4-foot length in order to trap frequencies below 70-90 Hz. YMMV. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I 2nd the Lascalla / Lascalla 2, They have the ability to sound great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlarwa Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 So I guess the next logical consideration is Cornscalas? Probably the same price (or less) new as I could get used 'horns or a LaScala/sub combo. I've never heard any though. Something to consider? Anyone in this thread experienced with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I say you should go for it. There is a lot to be said for a good room. But PWK demonstrated them in a hanger for goodness sake and there are theater versions used behind a screen. A small room can't be worse, maybe better. There is a suggested practice to have the top hat pointed toward, in front of, or in back of, the sweet spot where you listen. There is no need to build a false corner to rotate the entire unit though. You can put the bass units in the corners and then rotate the top hat a bit by loosening the mounting brackets. It may look a bit unorthodox but sound great. A buddy of mine had the Speakerlab SK's (near copy) and told me that they sounded better than anything else even when pulled away from the corners. I listened and found it true. Though I suggest the above work around. WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cincymat Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I say find someone close to you with a pair of La Scalas and beg them to let you listen for a while. My modified Forte II's are in the garage wrapped in plastic after bringing my La Scala LSI's back to life. The total horn experience is breath taking. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlarwa Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 So, I think I will shoot for the LaScalas, given the input here and elsewhere. I'm hoping to find a set that I can actually audition in my room, although that may take some luck and/or time. But I'd like to be somewhat confident that they'll do what I want. Think I'll sell the Forte II's to help fund the LS's, and just listen to my Super Pensils in the interim. Thanks all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 K'horns would work fine from my experience. You are just barely under PWK's 12' minimum and not enough to rule them out. I've run mine in similar sized rooms for years and they work just fine. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrofan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Where are you tlarwa? I'd be happy to give you a demo of lascala's and subs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twk123 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 So, I think I will shoot for the LaScalas, given the input here and elsewhere. I'm hoping to find a set that I can actually audition in my room, although that may take some luck and/or time. But I'd like to be somewhat confident that they'll do what I want. Think I'll sell the Forte II's to help fund the LS's, and just listen to my Super Pensils in the interim. Thanks all! The LaScalas are an awesome option. I have mine about 6.5 ft apart and sit about 6 ft back and have them toed in so they meet about 1 ft behind me. They are truly an awesome rock speaker, a few days ago I closed my eyes and listened to the whole Pink Floyd "The Wall" album and was so engrossed I literally lost myself in the music and story until the outro song finally stopped and it was 2:00am. If you get some, definitely look at the Crites tweeter upgrade and I have heard really good things about the Fastrac Tractrix horn. The bass is a little underwhelming depending on the track but if you are willing to move your table over a little to the right and put a Table Tuba or Cinema F-20 in the middle it will be phenomenal clean bass, especially with your bass traps and treatment. Just keep in mind the LaScalas are big speakers and quite wide so you may have trouble having them next to the Super Pensil speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrofan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I agree with having them toed in to converge slightly behind the main listening position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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