Belle listening fatigue

[Woofers and Tweeters]

Might be your wires. Do you have wire hangers?

 

[dBspl]

11 hours ago, WMcD said:

On the other hand, I don't see why the absence of a low-pass filter on the mid-range (I think that's what you mean) is necessarily bad? The K-55 cuts off really hard. As long as the output is attenuated enough not to cause interference with the tweeter output, what's the harm?  Per Kerry.

 

If I understand, the described none existent  low pass filter on the mid  design is to say that if the highs are cut off and we would overall we get a passband filter rather than just the high pass (at 500 Hz or so).

 

The issue is whether there is energy above say, 6000 Hz from the K-400 or K-500 with any of the K-55's.  It seems to me that even though driver output is dropping, the narrowing of the pattern above 3000 Hz is causing on axis gain.  This allows the mid output to go very much higher.  PWK, apparently based on the F-M curve did not like to crossover to the tweeter at 3500 Hz where the F-M curve shows the ear to be most sensitive. And the gain allowed this lower crossover point to be avoided.

 

Please consider the Dope from Hope on the new phase plug.  The graphs show a glitch at about 7000 Hz, though it moves a bit higher with the better phase plug.  Yes, Bob C has said it doesn't exist or only on some drivers.  I don't want to misquote him of course.

 

Therefore, if the DfH is accurate, then there are outputs from the mid in the tweeter region.  It seems to me the polar narrowing is doing too good a job.

 

There is some evidence of problems.  The Heyser review reports issues with female vocals (can they sing this high?)   The Vacuum Tube Valley article recommends the P-Trap to get rid of the glitch which reportedly eliminates a "shouty" effect.  The new crossovers are bandpass in the mid with a high freq rolloff starting at 4500 Hz, which should attenuate the glitch significantly.  (I think there are some earlier ones too on other units from Klipsch.) There is a lot of fishing in these waters.

 

 

Yes, the K-55 exhibits a band-pass response.  At least in the earlier Khorns, the high-pass is dominated by the electrical high-pass filter, whereas the low-pass is dominated by the acoustic filter characteristic of the phase plug.  The phase plug transfer function is pretty aggressive, and it relies on constructive & destructive interference to give you a net result. This isn't a bad thing, but it does make the phase plug sensitive to small changes in assembly & design that will effect the region just above and below cut-off.  I suspect that's why all the different manufacturer of this driver over the years seem to exhibit slightly different frequency response characteristics in the 3500 to 6000 Hz region.

 

With regard to the rising directivity factor (narrowing coverage) of the K-400 horn; I really don't think the gain is enough to matter.  I haven't looked at the DI in a long time, but I doubt it rises more than 3 or 4 dB per octave, but I could be wrong. On the other hand, you do have other things working in your favor, such as the mass of the diaphragm, and the inductance of the voice coil.  

 

Kerry

 

[babadono]

16 hours ago, Weber said:

Might be your wires. Do you have wire hangers?

 

I have coat hanger wire. Does that count?

[oldtimer]

16 hours ago, Weber said:

Might be your wires. Do you have wire hangers?

 

NO WIRE HANGERS, EVER!!!!!!

[muel]

[Schu]

On 09/14/2016 at 6:45 AM, dBspl said:

 

Yes, the K-55 exhibits a band-pass response.  At least in the earlier Khorns, the high-pass is dominated by the electrical high-pass filter, whereas the low-pass is dominated by the acoustic filter characteristic of the phase plug.  The phase plug transfer function is pretty aggressive, and it relies on constructive & destructive interference to give you a net result. This isn't a bad thing, but it does make the phase plug sensitive to small changes in assembly & design that will effect the region just above and below cut-off.  I suspect that's why all the different manufacturer of this driver over the years seem to exhibit slightly different frequency response characteristics in the 3500 to 6000 Hz region.

 

With regard to the rising directivity factor (narrowing coverage) of the K-400 horn; I really don't think the gain is enough to matter.  I haven't looked at the DI in a long time, but I doubt it rises more than 3 or 4 dB per octave, but I could be wrong. On the other hand, you do have other things working in your favor, such as the mass of the diaphragm, and the inductance of the voice coil.  

 

Kerry

 

Isn't 3 to 4 decibels actually significant?

[dBspl]

1 hour ago, Schu said:

Isn't 3 to 4 decibels actually significant?

 

Yea, I should have been more careful with that statement.  In the passband of the midrange, it is significant.  The K-400 is essentially a self equalizing horn design. The 3 or 4 dB per octave gain in directivity (decreasing vertical coverage) accounts for the flat on-axis frequency response. I was just saying that once you get above the compression driver's cut-off of 6kHz, the attenuation is so fast that even though the horn directivity will continue to increase, it really isn't increasing fast enough to have any meaningful impact on the frequency response.   

 

Kerry

[Travis In Austin]

On 9/14/2016 at 8:45 AM, dBspl said:

 

Yes, the K-55 exhibits a band-pass response.  At least in the earlier Khorns, the high-pass is dominated by the electrical high-pass filter, whereas the low-pass is dominated by the acoustic filter characteristic of the phase plug.  The phase plug transfer function is pretty aggressive, and it relies on constructive & destructive interference to give you a net result. This isn't a bad thing, but it does make the phase plug sensitive to small changes in assembly & design that will effect the region just above and below cut-off.  I suspect that's why all the different manufacturer of this driver over the years seem to exhibit slightly different frequency response characteristics in the 3500 to 6000 Hz region.

 

With regard to the rising directivity factor (narrowing coverage) of the K-400 horn; I really don't think the gain is enough to matter.  I haven't looked at the DI in a long time, but I doubt it rises more than 3 or 4 dB per octave, but I could be wrong. On the other hand, you do have other things working in your favor, such as the mass of the diaphragm, and the inductance of the voice coil.  

 

Kerry

 

That KG is so smart.

[mikebse2a3]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 5:12 PM, jwc said:

When I had my own settings EQ'ed (active but not digital) (because Klipsch doesn't have home settings), the K402 and the K510 together for three-way was the best.  Hands down to my ears.  I would say the same what I've heard at Mark1101's house. 

 

Hey jc  

 

I had the 3-way 904LF + K402/K1133 + K510/DE75 and I really enjoyed them and understand why some might prefer the 3-way performance which is excellent.

 

So I guess I can say I could go 2-way or 3-way and be very happy..

 

miketn

[jwc]

52 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

Hey jc  

 

I had the 3-way 904LF + K402/K1133 + K510/DE75 and I really enjoyed them and understand why some might prefer the 3-way performance which is excellent.

 

So I guess I can say I could go 2-way or 3-way and be very happy..

 

miketn

I initially thought I would like two way better.  It is good and it very well may be more like "live music".  I've realized when I listen to music at home, I'm used to the "sizzle" or basically "hear a separate tweeter".  Room acoustics......can give all kinds of results that are endured by listeners and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the sound of live music.

 

I saw a burn-out metal cover band a few months ago in an old theater.  Man I had a blast and was modestly impressed with the sound.  YES, live sound....snare in your face....kick drum chest pounding and the guy grungin' on the guitar.   The features I find desirable  in my house weren't there.  But my house system...didn't have the metal band's features either.

 

So my opinion of what is "great" is blurred right now.

 

I discovered something interesting last year.  I had to study for this god-aweful test for close to 600 hours.  I would sit in this room and study in 5 hour intervals at a time with 70's music playing.  It was a TV box jacked into a vintage sansui receiver and some pro Heresy's.    There were some hits that would come on from time-to-time that would "grab my emotions" for lack of better words.  I would temporarily turn it up some and enjoy.

 

When the test was over....I started making playlists with this same music and would come in and jam-out on a bigger system and listen to more detail .....blah blah blah.  For some reason....the same songs wouldn't grab my emotions.  Instead I started the usual playing the audio tracks that were typical of "showing off a system".  Please don't ask me about the tracks.

 

Some time later......that same 70's station in the background on the pro heresies and was grabbing my emotions again really loving the songs.

 

So what is this?  

 

 

 

[mikebse2a3]

15 minutes ago, jwc said:

I discovered something interesting last year.  I had to study for this god-aweful test for close to 600 hours.  I would sit in this room and study in 5 hour intervals at a time with 70's music playing.  It was a TV box jacked into a vintage sansui receiver and some pro Heresy's.    There were some hits that would come on from time-to-time that would "grab my emotions" for lack of better words.  I would temporarily turn it up some and enjoy.

 

When the test was over....I started making playlists with this same music and would come in and jam-out on a bigger system and listen to more detail .....blah blah blah.  For some reason....the same songs wouldn't grab my emotions.  Instead I started the usual playing the audio tracks that were typical of "showing off a system".  Please don't ask me about the tracks.

 

Some time later......that same 70's station in the background on the pro heresies and was grabbing my emotions again really loving the songs.

 

So what is this?  

 

Man this is wild...!!!!!

 

I edited a post in another thread about the same time as you were posting this and this is what I posted:

 

"I want as accurate a system as possible (within certain design goals) with the added ability to compensate for the real world inaccuracies..!!!

 

Another interesting observation I made about myself awhile back was when after repairing a friends jukebox I was listening to music that I first heard reproduced through jukeboxes many decades ago and it emotionally transported me back to a very happy time in my life that my much more accurate system wouldn't have been able to achieve to the same degree for Shure."

 

miketn

[jwc]

Funny. I wish I could get that every time turn on my system.  Spooky paralleled thoughts.

 

 

[mikebse2a3]

2 minutes ago, jwc said:

Funny. I wish I could get that every time turn on my system.  Spooky paralleled thoughts

 

One way I know I'm in a good place with my system is when what was going to be a short listening period turns into a much longer period and I have a hard time shutting it down and no matter what my mood was before starting it is even better afterwards.

[pauln]

What is all this talk about changes cause them not to be Klipsch speakers?

If I changed the crossovers and the tweeters, does Klipsch advise I remove the badges?

When asked, "What kind of speakers are those?", should I say, "I don't know", or "I can't tell you" or "They are my own custom design"?

For now, I'm going to go listen to Sonny Rollins' Way Out West on what I have been thinking are Klipsch La Scala...

 

 

[Chris A]

5 hours ago, jwc said:

I initially thought I would like two way better...I've realized when I listen to music at home, I'm used to the "sizzle" or basically "hear a separate tweeter"...So my opinion of what is "great" is blurred right now.

 

So what is this? 

Clearly that's something that you are attached to.  I believe that drives you toward the type of loudspeaker configurations and overall reproduced sound that you've stated (three-way somewhat exaggerated "boom" and "sizzle" amplified music). 

 

For me, I've never really liked the sound of jukeboxes, amplified musical instruments (over their acoustic counterparts), and processed/overproduced recordings...which I find to be more unpleasant and oftentimes actually stressing to listen to.  Live acoustic music without exaggeration, distortion, or amplification (but on-pitch) is what I identify most with good music.  The more the music sounds acoustic--the more it holds my attention.  It's probably because my experiences most closely align with that.

 

Chris

[Schu]

You know when the speakers stop being klipsch speakers... as soon as I pay for them. Anytime after that, they are mine.

[Budman]

1 hour ago, Schu said:

You know when the speakers stop being klipsch speakers... as soon as I pay for them. Anytime after that, they are mine.

good one Schu. can you post some pictures of your mine speakers

[jwc]

16 hours ago, jwc said:

I initially thought I would like two way better.  It is good and it very well may be more like "live music".  I've realized when I listen to music at home, I'm used to the "sizzle" or basically "hear a separate tweeter".  Room acoustics......can give all kinds of results that are endured by listeners and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the sound of live music.

 

I saw a burn-out metal cover band a few months ago in an old theater.  Man I had a blast and was modestly impressed with the sound.  YES, live sound....snare in your face....kick drum chest pounding and the guy grungin' on the guitar.   The features I find desirable  in my house weren't there.  But my house system...didn't have the metal band's features either.

 

So my opinion of what is "great" is blurred right now.

 

I discovered something interesting last year.  I had to study for this god-aweful test for close to 600 hours.  I would sit in this room and study in 5 hour intervals at a time with 70's music playing.  It was a TV box jacked into a vintage sansui receiver and some pro Heresy's.    There were some hits that would come on from time-to-time that would "grab my emotions" for lack of better words.  I would temporarily turn it up some and enjoy.

 

When the test was over....I started making playlists with this same music and would come in and jam-out on a bigger system and listen to more detail .....blah blah blah.  For some reason....the same songs wouldn't grab my emotions.  Instead I started the usual playing the audio tracks that were typical of "showing off a system".  Please don't ask me about the tracks.

 

Some time later......that same 70's station in the background on the pro heresies and was grabbing my emotions again really loving the songs.

 

So what is this?  

 

 

 

Chris.

 

I'm quoting myself here as the "what is this" had nothing to do with the beginning of my message talking of my 3 way preference.  

 

I was referring to the emotions of a song when heard in a simple setup vs a more detailed and higher- end system.

 

I was describing my preference then changed to a plausible question on another point. I should have made two different posts.

[jwc]

6 hours ago, Budman said:

good one Schu. can you post some pictures of your mine speakers

Thats right.  Did you drill out a big port hole in some la scalas?

[Chris A]

23 minutes ago, jwc said:

Chris.

 

I'm quoting myself here as the "what is this" had nothing to do with the beginning of my message talking of my 3 way preference.  

 

I was referring to the emotions of a song when heard in a simple setup vs a more detailed and higher- end system.

 

I was describing my preference then changed to a plausible question on another point. I should have made two different posts.

 

Yes, I understood this.  I was referring to your more general preferences on audio that we talked about in Hope and on this forum.  I believe that we simply have different preferences on what we're trying to achieve when it comes to "good audio":  that's what I stated.

 

Chris