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squadron14

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I HAVE A PAIR OF FORTE III AND A SUBWOOFER KLIPSCH 10 INCH.I HAVE THIS CONNECT TO A PIONEER RECEIVER SC-91 ELITE,7.2 CHANNELS.HONESTLY THIS SOUND TERRIBLE.I KNOW I NEED A CENTER CHANNEL AND A PAIR OF SURROUND SPEAKERS TO MAKE THIS SOUND BETTER.BUT SHOULD I BUY AN INTEGRATED AMP,I WANT TO KNOW THE BEST INTEGRATED AMP OR RECEIVER TO MATCH THIS FORTE III I PAY A LOT OF MONEY FOR THIS SPEAKERS AND SO FAR WHAT I AM HEARING IS NOT GOOD AT ALL.ANY HELP WILL BE APPRECIATED

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If this is strictly for music, I'd recommend anything that was built just for 2 channel stereo. That should make those fortes sing beautifully. I've heard a pair demoed a couple of times, plus owned some forte II speakers in the past, they are great speakers. Home theater receivers sometimes don't sound great for 2 channel. What's your budget? Sometimes searching craigslist, you can find some nice vintage stereo receivers and integrated amps like Yamaha, marantz, etc. 

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Sorry, but no amplifier is going to change speakers from "hate 'em to love 'em".   If ANY audible differences exist b/w modern day amplifiers and AVR's  (most double blinded testing suggests there is NOT) they are apt to be very very very very small - certainly not enough to change how you feel about your speakers.  ..Of course, this assume you have your AVR set-up properly (read: all tone controls zero'd/ off)

 

Look, there is no shame in admitting that Forte IIIs may not be for you.  ..I think they sound great, but there's bound to be those who don't.  ..Of course, one has to wonder how you came to own them without first confirming you like their sound.  If I were you, I'd first confirm my Pioneer is working properly then, assuming it is, I'd sell the Fortes and pursue another pair of speakers.  This time, spend copious amounts of time listening before buying.

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Don't buy anything new until you try many things to make your system sound better without spending more money.

  • There are so many different ways a speaker and a receiver combination can sound bad .. in what way does yours sound bad?  Distorted (fuzzy sounding, or discordant sounding)?  Lacking bass, or treble, or midrangeHarsh?  Not enough detail? 
  • Can you send us some photographs of your room and the positions of your speakers, and your main listening location?  Lacking photos, a drawing would help.
  • How large is your room?  Ceiling height, width, length?
  • Is your listening environment "Live?" (many hard surfaces) or "Dead?" (many soft, absorbent surfaces), or somewhere in-between?   Do you have bare floors, area rugs, or wall to wall carpets?
  • Are the speakers toed-in toward your listening position?
  • How far from the wall are your speakers?
  • Is the MCACC engaged and set up properly?  If in doubt, for now, switch it off, and see if that helps.  If you are using the manual equalizer, set everything to "0" or "Neutral" (no boost or cut), then make changes slowly, one at a time. 
  • Are your main speakers set for "Small," with the sub switch on the Pioneer set for "Yes" or "On?" 
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I just got rid of a new sub because it messed with the lower end of the sound my Forte IIIs were putting out. The extension of the bass was nice but the overlap up to 50 hz I did not like at all.

Never have used an avr myself. Are the large, small speaker settings correct? Maybe try them in strictly stereo mode without the sub?

Post a query in the Home Theater section, maybe someone there has experience with the same equipment?

Good Luck!

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whats seems to be the problem? Have you tried them without the sub? How far away are they from the the wall /corner?

If they are for 2 channel only , I would get a 2 channel receiver . My chorus lls sound better with a 2 channel receiver than with a home theater receiver. Ive tried an onkyo 717 , an itegra home theater  receiver , an sx780 pioneer 2 channel ,a parasound receiver .

The 2 channel always sounds better to me and its not just a slight difference. the chorus always sound tinny , no bass on a home theater receiver, put it on a 2 channel receiver and they wake up .

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19 hours ago, ODS123 said:

Sorry, but no amplifier is going to change speakers from "hate 'em to love 'em".   If ANY audible differences exist b/w modern day amplifiers and AVR's  (most double blinded testing suggests there is NOT) they are apt to be very very very very small - certainly not enough to change how you feel about your speakers.

 

When I first came to the forum I used to consistently refer to Klipschorns as "ear bleeders" - having only ever heard them with a Crown DC-300. I still rate that up there with one of the most god awful sounds I've ever heard.

 

An amplifier can definitely make or break the sound.

 

I think DBT is pretty much a waste.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/01/arts/sound-amplifiers-test-their-listeners.html

 

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tas/183/editorial.htm

 

With HT receivers, even relatively nice ones -- all of the money goes into the front end (the processing section), while the amplifier sections tend to be somewhat anemic. 

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33 minutes ago, Deang said:

 

When I first came to the forum I used to consistently refer to Klipschorns as "ear bleeders" - having only ever heard them with a Crown DC-300. I still rate that up there with one of the most god awful sounds I've ever heard.

 

An amplifier can definitely make or break the sound.

 

I think DBT is pretty much a waste.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/01/arts/sound-amplifiers-test-their-listeners.html

 

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tas/183/editorial.htm

 

With HT receivers, even relatively nice ones -- all of the money goes into the front end (the processing section), while the amplifier sections tend to be somewhat anemic. 

 

Those articles you linked to did little to discredit blinded testing. :)

 

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I'd consider carrying them outdoors so you can remove the room from the equation.

 

If you like the sound outdoors, then you like their sound and something else is amiss.  If you feel the same about them outdoors....  then maybe you don't like them.

 

I'd be willing to bet there might be some room issues....but, it's just a guess.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

Those articles you linked to did little to discredit blinded testing. :)

 

People who can’t hear a difference between equipment and parts shouldn’t waste their time on audio forums.  

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2 hours ago, Deang said:

 

When I first came to the forum I used to consistently refer to Klipschorns as "ear bleeders" - having only ever heard them with a Crown DC-300. I still rate that up there with one of the most god awful sounds I've ever heard.

 

An amplifier can definitely make or break the sound.

 

I think DBT is pretty much a waste.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/01/arts/sound-amplifiers-test-their-listeners.html

 

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tas/183/editorial.htm

 

With HT receivers, even relatively nice ones -- all of the money goes into the front end (the processing section), while the amplifier sections tend to be somewhat anemic. 

I actually saw some Crown DC-300's on Craigslist in Denver a few months ago and looked into them. Most of the reviews used words like "Broken Glass" to describe the sound. Supposedly they are bomb proof for tour duty though but I could not imagine them with K-Horns.

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2 hours ago, Deang said:

 

People who can’t hear a difference between equipment and parts shouldn’t waste their time on audio forums.  

You are holding online audio forums to too high a standard,.

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6 hours ago, Deang said:

 

People who can’t hear a difference between equipment and parts should just listen to BOSE

😛

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16 hours ago, Deang said:

 

An amplifier can definitely make or break the sound.

 

 

I have to agree.  Even amplifiers in the same class, such as IcePower / Class D, Tubes, and standard A/B.  There is a synergy of components that will change that last 10% of the sound.

 

As I state, last 10%.  Changing amps will not likely bring a hate relationship with a speaker to love, unless you are only picking on one aspect that you want from the amp.

13 hours ago, twk123 said:

I actually saw some Crown DC-300's on Craigslist in Denver a few months ago and looked into them. Most of the reviews used words like "Broken Glass" to describe the sound. Supposedly they are bomb proof for tour duty though but I could not imagine them with K-Horns.

I had similar experiences with Crown XTI's though a lot of folks use them.  To me their high end was broken.

 

On 6/24/2018 at 4:46 PM, squadron14 said:

I HAVE A PAIR OF FORTE III AND A SUBWOOFER KLIPSCH 10 INCH.I HAVE THIS CONNECT TO A PIONEER RECEIVER SC-91 ELITE,7.2 CHANNELS.HONESTLY THIS SOUND TERRIBLE.

The Pioneer SC-91, and their D3 receivers are generally considered quite good sounding.  Either the set up is configured wrong or yes, the Forte's are not for you.

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17 hours ago, Deang said:

 

People who can’t hear a difference between equipment and parts shouldn’t waste their time on audio forums.  

 

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On 6/25/2018 at 2:03 PM, Deang said:

 

When I first came to the forum I used to consistently refer to Klipschorns as "ear bleeders" - having only ever heard them with a Crown DC-300. I still rate that up there with one of the most god awful sounds I've ever heard.

 

An amplifier can definitely make or break the sound.

 

I think DBT is pretty much a waste.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/01/arts/sound-amplifiers-test-their-listeners.html

 

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tas/183/editorial.htm

 

With HT receivers, even relatively nice ones -- all of the money goes into the front end (the processing section), while the amplifier sections tend to be somewhat anemic. 

 

Hey Dean,

 

Interesting articles!  The NYT article in particular.  It is my general contention that any good amp, not over driven, will not materially change the sound of the speaker (with some exceptions allowed).  I do hear some differences in amps, but always VERY tiny ones.  Nothing that would make/break a speaker.  Rooms do that.  There was a just audible difference between Class A and Class AB on my Yamaha CA-800.  I did not always hear it on all songs, but I will call it clearer, probably less harmonic distortion.  The CA-800 did have less woofer control that Marantz MA-500 driven with the Yamaha's preamp.  My Wave8 monoblocks, if driven gently and not allowed to come even close to clipping sounded nearly identical to my Acurus A125x5, for the first hour or so, with maybe a little less bass control.  By 3 hours they were fuzzy/dirty sounding (heat?).  Pretty surprising for an amp raved over online.  I had Parasound amps for a while.  They had a tiny touch of warmth, if you listened critically.  I have never noticed a difference in sound between the B&K M200 and Acurus A250s I have used for sub amps.  I have had my La Scalas in dead rooms intended to be better for HT.  Perhaps that is why none of the gear came out sounding harsh.  

 

Dang!  That a lot of gear run through this system!  

 

Now with my Acurus amps (I miss the easy operation of my ACT-3 with Klipsch upgrade), I just listen to music and movies.  No more dissecting tracks to determine the material of drum heads or whether the violin has a good woody resonance.  All of the amps I have had would do that, but I think the Acurus amps disappear and don't "do" anything. 

 

squadron, try setting the tone controls and any EQ to flat.  Turn off the sub and set the Fortes to large.  Fortes should not need a subwoofer.  Listen in 2.0.  Move the Fortes about 3 feet out of the corners, but against a wall and give that a try.  Move them around some to find a good spot.  Then add the sub back as LFE only (mains set to Large).  Rooms can be finicky things, you may even need to add tapestries to the walls and floor to control reflections.  Since you did not describe "terrible", this is a beginning suggestion.  BTW, a center speaker and surrounds will not fix a terrible room. 

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On 6/25/2018 at 11:38 AM, ODS123 said:

 

Those articles you linked to did little to discredit blinded testing. :)

 

Blind... whether double blind or not... is NOT a proper test for quality. It's a test that distinguishes the difference in listeners, not those of listening devices.

The constant referral to its use as a reference for quality is ludicrous.

 

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19 hours ago, Schu said:

Blind... whether double blind or not... is NOT a proper test for quality. It's a test that distinguishes the difference in listeners, not those of listening devices.

The constant referral to its use as a reference for quality is ludicrous.

 

 

Not to Derail this thread but I find that to be patently ridiculous. As I’ve said before, this hobby’s relative distain  for empirical evidence is incredible and likely explains why so relatively few people  participate in it.  

 

I find it amazing that while we all seem to appreciate the good work of the highly skilled electrical and mechanical engineers who design our gear we at the same time detach ourselves from the scientific method that is the very foundation of what they do.   I strongly suspect the engineers who work at audio gear companies have tremendous skepticism about audiophiles because of the “huge” differences  they claim to hear between amps, CD players, dacs, etc..  By that token, I suspect PWK himself would as Well...  just a hunch

 

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If the difference is immediately obvious, I would say it's a "big" difference. If it takes a couple of CD's to pick up on the subtleties, then that would be a small difference. With that kind of thing, it might even be hard to decide which you prefer - one thing isn't obviously "better" than the other.

 

McIntosh has a "house sound" that many prefer. They are built with quality components and great care. They're also expensive (by my standards). A used MA6600 integrated costs about $4000 ($6500 list). You have a turntable that retails for $1700. With so little, if any difference between varying components, you either wasted a lot of money, or don't really believe what you're saying.

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1 hour ago, Deang said:

If the difference is immediately obvious, I would say it's a "big" difference. If it takes a couple of CD's to pick up on the subtleties, then that would be a small difference. With that kind of thing, it might even be hard to decide which you prefer - one thing isn't obviously "better" than the other.

 

McIntosh has a "house sound" that many prefer. They are built with quality components and great care. They're also expensive (by my standards). A used MA6600 integrated costs about $4000 ($6500 list). You have a turntable that retails for $1700. With so little, if any difference between varying components, you either wasted a lot of money, or don't really believe what you're saying.

 

  Although I don’t believe my Mac amp sounds different than any Of the amps I’ve had prior, there are a great many reasons for buying it. For starters, I love the feel, the look, the build quality and the fact that it is largely handcrafted in upstate New York.  Plus, I love the feature set, Including:  mono/stereo switch, bass/treble controls, trims to adjust the volume level for all inputs, and wattage meters that help ensure I’m not over driving my speakers.  Basically, I see owning a McIintosh amp as being roughly equivalent to owning an expensive watch: yes, it’s frivolous and unnecessary but it is satisfying and enjoyable all the same.   I am not critical of owning expensive gear,  only of believing it sounds better.   Speakers are the lone exception, imho.

 

 I don’t own a motorcycle or boat or an expensive car. My audio system is pretty much my only extravagance .   As for my turntable, I do believe there are audible differences between modern day tables but these differences disappear once speed accuracy, W&F, and rumble  achieve certain measurable levels. In short, the SL-1200 solves all these problems and spending more yields little in terms of audible improvement.  Again, imho

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