How much toe-in do you use

[Islander]

On 12/22/2018 at 6:01 AM, elee532 said:

@Islander, can you explain what is meant by "inboard side of the speaker?" Thanks!

 

 

Sure.  The inboard sides are the ones toward the centre of the system, meaning the right side of the left speaker, and the left side of the right speaker, as seen from the listening position.

 

The outboard sides are the left side of the left speaker, and the right side of the right speaker, as seen from the listening position.

 

Lining up the inboard sides with my ears, left speaker with left ear and right speaker with right ear, means the speaker axes cross behind me.  If I were to line up the outboard sides of the speakers with my ears, the axes (plural of "axis") would cross well in front of me.  Although that seems illogical to me, some people like the sound of their speakers when they're set up that way.  As always with speaker positioning and orienting, experiment!  Your room is likely a bit different from everyone else's, which is why I say that experimenting is the way to get the best sound from your system, in your room.  Formulas and recommendations are starting points, not Gospel or audio law.  Try different arrangements, make notes, and see which you like best.

 

Also, as has been mentioned by one or more other members, it's good to make sure there's nothing sticking out too far between the speakers.  It's not necessary to remove everything and get a totally empty space in the middle.  It's sufficient that nothing is so far from the front wall that the speakers can't "see" each other.  If you look carefully, or use a string or laser beam running from the front of the left speaker to the front of the right speaker, check that the electronics stack, the subwoofer, the TV, or whatever else is between the speakers, is behind the line, string, or beam.  This can affect your stereo imaging.

 

With the big Heritage speakers like La Scalas being 24"/60 cm. deep or more, and positioned at least a little distance from the front wall, it's usually not too difficult to keep the fronts of the speakers "in sight" of each other.  Even with less deep speakers, you can always mention to anyone who shares your living space that it's easier to dust or vacuum behind the speakers if they're not jammed up against the wall.

[ODS123]

My CWIIIs are about 14' apart and I sit facing forward about 16' from each speaker.  I've found slight toe-in (12 - 15 degrees I'm guessing) to be the best compromise b/w resolution and soundstage.

 

[Alexander]

After much experimentation with either forte II's or klf-30's  I found the best sound came from having the "focal point" just behind my seating position. 

[Schu]

Always... behind MLP, despite what the science says.

[mopardave]

On 12/5/2018 at 4:58 PM, buf said:

I have the Forte IIIs and I was wondering if the amount of toe-in that I use is similar to what other owners use. This could apply to other Heritage speakers.

I read some where years ago to point the drivers to the back of your head while you are in your listening place.  I have found recently with my Super Heresy that slightly towed out from there widens the sound stage a bit.  The Supers are in a very small office thou(8×10).   My Cornwalls work good on axis with the back on my head, but they are the vertical horns.

[mopardave]

6 hours ago, Islander said:

 

 

Sure.  The inboard sides are the ones toward the centre of the system, meaning the right side of the left speaker, and the left side of the right speaker, as seen from the listening position.

 

The outboard sides are the left side of the left speaker, and the right side of the right speaker, as seen from the listening position.

 

Lining up the inboard sides with my ears, left speaker with left ear and right speaker with right ear, means the speaker axes cross behind me.  If I were to line up the outboard sides of the speakers with my ears, the axes (plural of "axis") would cross well in front of me.  Although that seems illogical to me, some people like the sound of their speakers when they're set up that way.  As always with speaker positioning and orienting, experiment!  Your room is likely a bit different from everyone else's, which is why I say that experimenting is the way to get the best sound from your system, in your room.  Formulas and recommendations are starting points, not Gospel or audio law.  Try different arrangements, make notes, and see which you like best.

 

Also, as has been mentioned by one or more other members, it's good to make sure there's nothing sticking out too far between the speakers.  It's not necessary to remove everything and get a totally empty space in the middle.  It's sufficient that nothing is so far from the front wall that the speakers can't "see" each other.  If you look carefully, or use a string or laser beam running from the front of the left speaker to the front of the right speaker, check that the electronics stack, the subwoofer, the TV, or whatever else is between the speakers, is behind the line, string, or beam.  This can affect your stereo imaging.

 

With the big Heritage speakers like La Scalas being 24"/60 cm. deep or more, and positioned at least a little distance from the front wall, it's usually not too difficult to keep the fronts of the speakers "in sight" of each other.  Even with less deep speakers, you can always mention to anyone who shares your living space that it's easier to dust or vacuum behind the speakers if they're not jammed up against the wall.

When your measuring from side wall are you measuring to outside of speakers or center of drivers?

[Cornman]

On 12/6/2018 at 9:10 PM, veloceleste said:

Jut picked up my FIII's and have spent a few hours trying to get them dialed in. They are 7 feet apart center to center, 19.5" from front wall, and slightly toed in so axis would be just behind listening position. I started with them about six feet apart and axis crossing just in front of listening position. Pulling them apart that foot and reducing the toe in created a much larger sound stage. Working on getting the bass evened out now as best I can and a few other variables. 

l like your folding screen . is there a tv behind it ? Great idea to dampen those reflection's .

[veloceleste]

.

[wvu80]

On 1/15/2019 at 10:02 AM, Schu said:

Always... behind MLP, despite what the science says.

Interesting. 

 

I'll try that technique the next time I re-run Audyssey for a 5.1, which effectively would do the same thing by putting my setup mic behind my seating position  instead of in front of it.

[Ossidian]

Good article on speaker basis some may find interesting.

 

Speaker Off Axis

[Ossidian]

On my OB Hawthorne Audio Rainier MK III I find  2" toe works well.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Ossidian

[dtr20]

On 1/15/2019 at 10:02 AM, Schu said:

Always... behind MLP, despite what the science says.

That's what I have always done

[glens]

Crossing over my feet.

[Chris A]

17 hours ago, Ossidian said:

Good article on speaker basis some may find interesting.  Speaker Off Axis

Dipoles really cannot be effectively toed-in--like the ones you show in your picture, above:

 

17 hours ago, Ossidian said:

On my OB Hawthorne Audio Rainier MK III I find  2" toe works well.

 

When you toe-in dipoles, it leaves a big hole in the center of the soundstage due to the reflected backwave energy being directed away from the center of the front wall.  I abandoned dipoles a long time ago because I found after many hours of trying that they cannot be effectively integrated into the room--even a room tailor made for them.  They are a "coupled design" in terms of their output backwave not being able to be independently aimed relative to the direct arrival energy from the front of the loudspeakers. Using two sets of loudspeakers--one facing forward and one aft on each side--is the way to decouple this design issue.  If you look at the Beveridge design, you'll see that he abandoned dipoles altogether in favor of monopole planar coverage:

 

 

Also, the reference that you cited above has some oversimplifications on the "sidewall reflection angle".  It's not a single angle, it's rather a very wide distribution that's heavily dependent on the polar coverage of the loudspeakers (which the author failed to mention). 

 

The major effect that you'll hear with dipoles in-room by toeing in is the hole-in-the-center effect, followed by the issue of nearfield reflections from the adjacent side walls that actually need to be controlled, not reinforced.  These are not image broadening reflections (in a plane wave sense), but rather wind up becoming distortions of the nearfield sound image, leading to soundstage issues.

 

The reason why people have issues with toe-in and talk about it so much on this forum is because they haven't dealt with all the acoustically reflective objects between the loudspeakers in the lower treble, midrange and upper midbass (above the room's Schroeder frequency) bands.  If you do something to effectively control those early reflections between the loudspeakers, the problem goes away and you'll be finding yourself toeing in to PWK's toe-in recommendations.  With dipoles, you really don't have much latitude in what you can do: it is what it is.

 

Chris

[Ossidian]

Could not disagree more. My OB speakers completely disappear and there is no hole in center stage. Everyone has opinions and my 40 years of owning 100's of speakers and owning a High End store for 25 years tells me different. You are entitled to your opinions but they are not necessarily facts. After seeing your system setup tells me everything I need to know about your opinions lol.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Ossidian

[DirtyErnie]

I tried the CF2's straight-ahead, and it wasn't great, weird kind of hot-spot in the middle, and a bit of a 'head in a vise' hot-spot right down the middle.

Then tried them toed-in, pointing directly at the MLP, the hot-spot in the middle sounded better, but it was even more of a 'head in a vise' affair.

 

Now I have them toed-in pretty severely, so that the horn directivity on both speakers covers both the main and side sofas in the (small) living room I have.   Things are much more even-handed now.  Sound got even better after letting the cheap sony HTIB receiver run it's calibration sweeps with the supplied microphone.  Yeah, it's not strictly hi-fi, but it's working pretty well on my budget (and with small children, I'm definitely not putting the vacuum tubes back on display  )

[Chris A]

18 minutes ago, Ossidian said:

...my 40 years of owning 100's of speakers and owning a High End store for 25 years tells me different.

Yes...In my experience, your statement isn't something I'd be terribly proud of (sort of like being divorced 100x)...as well as showing us dipole speakers you presently think are great on the Klipsch forum.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Chris

[Chris A]

16 minutes ago, DirtyErnie said:

I tried the CF2's straight-ahead, and it wasn't great, weird kind of hot-spot in the middle, and a bit of a 'head in a vise' hot-spot right down the middle.

Then tried them toed-in, pointing directly at the MLP, the hot-spot in the middle sounded better, but it was even more of a 'head in a vise' affair.

 

Now I have them toed-in pretty severely, so that the horn directivity on both speakers covers both the main and side sofas in the (small) living room I have.   Things are much more even-handed now...

One of the characteristics of the HF horn in the 2-way CF2 is that they are very much like the K-510 horn, and therefore have to be turned to about a 40 degree angle to listener before the midrange/HF SPL begins to fall off.  This is a characteristic of an extremely well-designed horn. 

 

 

Chris

[DirtyErnie]

15 minutes ago, Chris A said:

One of the characteristics of the HF horn in the 2-way CF2 is that they are very much like the K-510 horn, and therefore have to be turned to about a 40 degree angle to listener before the midrange/HF SPL begins to fall off.  This is a characteristic of an extremely well-designed horn. 

 

 

Chris

 

That's probably not far off from where I have them turned right now.  Maybe I'll post a picture some day. 😉   I'm loving how these things throw sound through the whole house without getting that loud.  The horns could probably use an L-pad, maybe with some HF EQ to balance everything.

[Islander]

On 12/6/2018 at 1:33 PM, Schu said:

I love toe...

 

Jam?