Shakeydeal Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 22 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Just to be clear, I NEVER said all amplifiers are identical and all sound the same. ..I said all amplifiers that are engineered to be linear - which includes pretty much ALL modern day sold-state amplifiers and even many tube amps (like McIntosh) - will be audibly indistinguishable from one another so long as they are operated as designed (ie., not over-driven into distortion). So please name another "modern day" tube amplifier that is linear like a McIntosh? Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said: So please name another "modern day" tube amplifier that is linear like a McIntosh? Shakey Audio Research, but I'm not certain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Audio Research, but I'm not certain. A perfect definition of specificity. I think it is but I am not certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Ok. Now that I've got your attention. So is it a given that a 100/channel McIntosh tube amp will sound identical to a 100/channel Audio Research tube amp? If both are "linear"? Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Let’s say that you have an apple. That apple is the original musical performance. You then eat the apple. The apple goes through you, is processed by your digestive tract, and comes out the other end as a turd. You then cut that turd into two pieces, one piece is on the right, and one piece is on the left. That is the stereo representation of the original apple. It’s not the same as the original apple. Obsessing about linearity is effectively trying to make the turd be a linear representation of a turd, not of the original uneaten apple. Isn’t it better, given that you have a turd to work with, to find a topology that makes the turd seem more like an apple rather than striving for an exact representation of the turd? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 18 hours ago, glens said: http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps.html Don't stop until you get all the way through the page... There are items of interest sprinkled throughout the site and it's hard to pick which would be the single best example. Trigger warning for subjectivists - you may not want to read what's in that link. 😀 Edit: Too late. It seems that some have already read the link... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, Tizman said: Let’s say that you have an apple. That apple is the original musical performance. You then eat the apple. The apple goes through you, is processed by your digestive tract, and comes out the other end as a turd. You then cut that turd into two pieces, one piece is on the right, and one piece is on the left. That is the stereo representation of the original apple. It’s not the same as the original apple. Obsessing about linearity is effectively trying to make the turd be a linear representation of a turd, not of the original uneaten apple. Isn’t it better, given that you have a turd to work with, to find a topology that makes the turd seem more like an apple rather than striving for an exact representation of the turd? === oh, now you tell me. I eat an 🍎 for lunch, every day. And to cost average my apple expense I’ve been saving those turds for future use. For the life of me they just don’t look, smell or taste the same afterwards - better to know late-than never — Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, ODS123 said: .I said all amplifiers that are engineered to be linear - One of the reasons the Western Electric 300B has been considered an excellent audio tube is it has a very linear output in its operating range. I would even go so far as to say that most designers wanted to make them linear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, Marvel said: One of the reasons the Western Electric 300B has been considered an excellent audio tube is it has a very linear output in its operating range. Especially when used in a push-pull circuit. With about 12 dB negative feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 22 minutes ago, Don Richard said: Especially when used in a push-pull circuit. With about 12 dB negative feedback. Yes. The more feedback the better. The turd should smell, look and taste as much as possible like a turd. A bit of push-pull crossover distortion helps to make it extra smelly and vile. Forget about the apple and enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said: Ok. Now that I've got your attention. So is it a given that a 100/channel McIntosh tube amp will sound identical to a 100/channel Audio Research tube amp? If both are "linear"? Shakey Absolutely, if they are made with the same parts, the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Push pull amps can run Class A, and 12 dB feedback is fine, assuming the amp is designed with that in mind. The danger is using too much negative feedback in order to linearize a poorly designed amp. You seem to have a strange fascination with turds. They have therapies these days that can help with that.😈 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Tizman said: Let’s say that you have an apple. Stop right there...Lets say I got a coconut ? I read the whole rest of the thing but I'm still thinking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, Fish said: Absolutely, if they are made with the same parts, the same way. If they were made with the same parts and the same way, they would be the same amplifier by the same manufacturer and there would be no need to test one against the other. I've never claimed I could hear the difference between two identical (insert model #) from (insert manufacturer name)........... Shakey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I think he just told us to eat shit? and pretend it's an apple? 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 On 2/5/2019 at 8:17 PM, Tizman said: I then used the balance control to quickly alternate b/w the two. But you knew which which is which which. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 This new version of the WE-97A amp uses 8 300B tubes, producing 80watts output. The freq. response is +/- 1 db 10-100khz. It uses modern fabrication technologies, even if it does use tubes, albeit new production tubes made in the U.S. We will also ignore the fact that they are about $60k+ (pair...I misquoted). each Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Very nice. Pricey, but nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 3 hours ago, Marvel said: This new version of the WE-97A Is it single ended parallel or push-pull? I can’t seem to find anything about the topology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I don't know. I'll ask they next time I go in the repair shop. I'm supposed to do a tour of the new 300B plant and need to give them a call to schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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