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2 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I used REW to model my room and with bass EQ, I get the best bass I've ever had, since, modal acoustics are pretty flat with what I have. Screw the "experts" I have RESULTS!

 

Any fellow Klipschead is free to contact me for a listening session. If will only cost you a six pack of craft beer, like all others who have passed through my listening room.

I believe you 👍

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38 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

 

I am not sure what this means.

My understanding is that the Low pass nature of the La Scala and K-Horn (400 or so Hz)is due to the problems I cited. This was resolved in the Jubilee and allowed the cabinet to go about an octave higher. 

 

If you are interested, draw out a life size sketch of the horizontal of the Jubilee and then plot the both the cross sectional area as a function of distance (along the horn). Also plot the path lengths for the "inside" and "outside". Take the difference and you will see where that is maximum (and how it is then re-aligned in the final sections). Hint: the back fold is critical. 

 

The jubilee has some very interesting features in its geometry. I guess Roy knew what he was doing .......

Yes he did. The big compromise is the non expanding vertical that makes that pesky 220 hz. dip a permanent fixture in the horn. But the rest is so good, that this can be ignored.

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21 minutes ago, moray james said:

can you show me a bass horn with the same low end response and a higher roll off? I wont be holding my breath while you search. I have looked for years and never found one. This (the Beck California) is so far as I am aware of has better bandwidth than a Jub.

Moray, I think this will be the rub.

As you know to get low freq extension AND have the horn go out to 1kHz is going to be very tough (and could be very large and the highs may not be very good).

Is this a case of a horn that goes up to 1kHz but only goes down 3 octaves? If so, that is hardly newsworthy

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47 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

Low end should be crossed over to a subwoofer as far as I'm concerned if you want to hear all of your recorded content.

 

Any of the BFM DR series will get you there. Porting the cabinets can get you by if a sub is out of the question.

Ok so no you don't know of a bass horn with the same low cut off and which also has much higher extension. It is well established that a sub should be cross below 100Hz. otherwise you will suffer localization issues.  You are totally missing the point of crossing the sub horn to the mid horn lower is better while higher is not. For rough PA work I can see why it would be attractive to have a crossover at say 600 Hz. or 700 Hz. to build a reasonably compact two way, but not at all for hifi applications. As I have said the market place does not see this your way only with direct radiators does this approach make physical sense. If you think I am wrong then build a horn system along the lines of what you propose and you will I hope better understand the issues that I am describing.

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19 minutes ago, moray james said:

it is well established that a sub should be cross below 100Hz. otherwise you will suffer localization issues.  You are totally missing the point of crossing the sub horn to the mid horn lower is better while higher is not. For rough PA work I can see why it would be attractive to have a crossover at say 600 Hz. or 700 Hz. to build a reasonably compact two way, but not at all for hifi applications. As I have said the market place does not see this your way only with direct radiators does this approach make physical sense. If you think I am wrong then build a horn system along the lines of what you propose and you will I hope better understand the issues that I am describing.

 

The marketplace wants small compact systems but most who owned horns will never want to go back. As far as building goes its no longer in the cards for me, just answering questions to the best of my knowledge.

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3 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

The marketplace wants small compact systems but most who owned horns will never want to go back. As far as building goes its no longer in the cards for me, just answering questions to the best of my knowledge.

well now you have abandoned the discussion of horn subs totally! The point I was trying to make was that it is not possible to build a horn that plays from 50 Hz. to 1000Hz. even if you could the disruptive cancellations and additions would generate a host of problems and would make a total mess of the speaker systems stage and image. The reason a CW sounds better than a Heresy it crosses lower to the larger mid horn, putting aside the better bass extension. This is the reason why when you look into state of the art full range horn systems they are a minimum of 5 or 6 way systems. Three octaves is considered the general max rule of thumb for a horns bandwidth.

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3 minutes ago, moray james said:

well now you have abandoned the discussion of horn subs totally! The point I was trying to make was that it is not possible to build a horn that plays from 50 Hz. to 1000Hz. even if you could the disruptive cancellations and additions would generate a host of problems and would make a total mess of the speaker systems stage and image. The reason a CW sounds better than a Heresy it crosses lower to the larger mid horn, putting aside the better bass extension. This is the reason why when you look into state of the art full range horn systems they are a minimum of 5 or 6 way systems. Three octaves is considered the general max rule of thumb for a horns bandwidth.

 

A Cornwall and Heresy use direct radiating woofers witch is the weak point of the design, of course it will make a huge difference.

 

I call bullshit that you can't have a horn that plays from 50Hz to even 2kHz, there is no reason it cannot be done.

 

I'm out for the weekend, be back soon. Enjoy.

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13 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

A Cornwall and Heresy use direct radiating woofers witch is the weak point of the design, of course it will make a huge difference.

 

I call bullshit that you can't have a horn that plays from 50Hz to even 2kHz, there is no reason it cannot be done.

 

I'm out for the weekend, be back soon. Enjoy.

What will make a huge difference? You keep deflecting. I you want to build a back loaded horn (commonly known as a scoop horn) sure you can play the woofer out to 5KHz or to where ever it drops off. We have been discussing front loaded horns and there you are very much mistaken. I am going to drop out of this now and leave you to your own (BS).

BS badge.jpg

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4 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I used REW to model my room and with bass EQ, I get the best bass I've ever had, since, modal acoustics are pretty flat with what I have. Screw the "experts" I have RESULTS!

 

Any fellow Klipschead is free to contact me for a listening session. If will only cost you a six pack of craft beer, like all others who have passed through my listening room.

 

I’ve never heard better music reproduction than Claude’s MEH and sub(s)(?) system.  It always takes me some time to readjust to my DIY Super Heresies and 4 DIY Anarchy Exodus TH subs in my small basement space.  My system is complete — this time I’m serious — and it sounds fantastic to me,  but not quite so fantastic immediately after a trip to Claude’s.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, moray james said:

What will make a huge difference? You keep deflecting. I you want to build a back loaded horn (commonly known as a scoop horn) sure you can play the woofer out to 5KHz or to where ever it drops off. We have been discussing front loaded horns and there you are very much mistaken. I am going to drop out of this now and leave you to your own (BS).

BS badge.jpg

 

Port the DR 300 and you have your 50 Hz-2 kHz horn, no Bullshit there.

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17 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

 

I’ve never heard better music reproduction than Claude’s MEH and sub(s)(?) system.  It always takes me some time to readjust to my DIY Super Heresies and 4 DIY Anarchy Exodus TH subs in my small basement space.  My system is complete — this time I’m serious — and it sounds fantastic to me,  but not quite so fantastic immediately after a trip to Claude’s.

 

 

Well, you do win the best bang for the buck award, however. It's a relative scale, not an absolute one.

 

That being said, wait until I have all 11 channels firing with 3 subs, including my new Super Tapped Horn. Neighbors beware!

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1 hour ago, moray james said:

Ok so no you don't know of a bass horn with the same low cut off and which also has much higher extension. It is well established that a sub should be cross below 100Hz. otherwise you will suffer localization issues.  You are totally missing the point of crossing the sub horn to the mid horn lower is better while higher is not. For rough PA work I can see why it would be attractive to have a crossover at say 600 Hz. or 700 Hz. to build a reasonably compact two way, but not at all for hifi applications. As I have said the market place does not see this your way only with direct radiators does this approach make physical sense. If you think I am wrong then build a horn system along the lines of what you propose and you will I hope better understand the issues that I am describing.

It's easy to cross a Jube to a K402 at 300 Hz. when you have the right top end for a 2 or 3-way, as the Mid horn will go that low. The new Celestion "super driver" looks promising for a 2-way, but I don't think they will sell to hobbyists, so the BMS co-ax driver might be the ticket there.. 

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28 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

 

I’ve never heard better music reproduction than Claude’s MEH and sub(s)(?) system.  It always takes me some time to readjust to my DIY Super Heresies and 4 DIY Anarchy Exodus TH subs in my small basement space.  My system is complete — this time I’m serious — and it sounds fantastic to me,  but not quite so fantastic immediately after a trip to Claude’s.

 

 

I should add that when I'm done, I will have 65 Horn loaded drivers with 11 channels plus 3 huge TH Subs, operating at ridiculously low distortion, and seemingly unlimited output an with full range dynamics. I promise........................all with small class D amps of course, except for the Hypex NC400 monoblocs on the R and L channels. After that, as the antithesis to the OP, I will NOT want new speakers..........just more challenging recordings from digital sources.

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Not to totally hi-jack this thread, but I’ve met great people through this forum and heard some great systems.  Perhaps this OT post can inspire the ears OP to meet local members and audition their systems.

 

This afternoon I was on Woodward Ave riding shotgun in a work van when I heard my name.  Next to me was Klipsch friend Brett @bhenry in a Shelby Mustang.  As soon as the contractors finish our basement lavatory I will increase efforts to organize a man-cave crawl.  IMO, it should end at Claude’s in Pontiac.  I do not want to follow Claude’s system.   We could start at my place in Birmingham, go to Brett’s in Berkley,  move north to Fenton  @Escher Mt. Morris @mopardave Burton @kevinmi and any others in the Metro Detroit area before ending at Claude’s.  Or, we could do an Oakland County version, with a Genesee County edition on a separate day.

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24 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Well, you do win the best bang for the buck award, however. It's a relative scale, not an absolute one.

 

That’s my goal.

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38 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

Not to totally hi-jack this thread, but I’ve met great people through this forum and heard some great systems.  Perhaps this OT post can inspire the OP to meet local members and audition their systems.

 

 

That's what I offered guf a couple of weeks ago (see page 2).  And the offer still stands.  It's always fun to get together with other music enthusiasts, we had a nice small group here about ten years ago. Life gets in the way and people drift apart.

Darrell

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On 6/27/2019 at 12:37 PM, PrestonTom said:

She turned and looked at me, while pointing to the big K-402 and asked "where is the picture"?

 

That's funny!!

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I should add that when I'm done, I will have 65 Horn loaded drivers with 11 channels plus 3 huge TH Subs

 

As my nephew would say....  "That's cray-cray"

 

(sp??)

 

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1 hour ago, DizRotus said:

Not to totally hi-jack this thread, but I’ve met great people through this forum and heard some great systems.  Perhaps this OT post can inspire the OP to meet local members and audition their systems.

 

This afternoon I was on Woodward Ave riding shotgun in a work van when I Heard my name.  Next to me was Klipsch friend Brett @bhenry in a Shelby Mustang.  As soon as the contractors finish our basement lavatory I will increase efforts to organize a man-cave crawl.  IMO, it should end at Claude’s in Pontiac.  I do not want to follow Claude’s system.   We could start at my place in Birmingham, go to Brett’s in Berkley,  move north to Fenton  @Escher Mt. Morris @mopardave Burton @kevinmi and any others in the Metro Detroit area before ending at Claude’s.  Or, we could do an Oakland County version, with a Genesee County edition on a separate day.

 

 

Or, get some bose cubes and call it a day??

 

 

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1 hour ago, DizRotus said:

This afternoon I was on Woodward Ave riding shotgun in a work van when I Heard my name.  Next to me was Klipsch friend Brett @bhenry in a Shelby Mustang.  As soon as the contractors finish our basement lavatory I will increase efforts to organize a man-cave crawl.  IMO, it should end at Claude’s in Pontiac.  I do not want to follow Claude’s system.   We could start at my place in Birmingham, go to Brett’s in Berkley,  move north to Fenton  @Escher Mt. Morris @mopardave Burton @kevinmi and any others in the Metro Detroit area before ending at Claude’s.  Or, we could do an Oakland County version, with a Genesee County edition on a separate day.

Perhaps my best friend from back in your parts @kevinmclogan would like to join you guys.

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