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charbuggie

Klipsch Jubilee amp decision

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I too festered over adding a digital source to my analog/vinyl front end.     

 

(Dont take my bluntness as being arrogant, but... Get over it..)

 

The Xilica brings so much to the table for Jubilees, it would be almost foolish to try to go passive..

 

I would be very surprised to see a passive network sound better than a dialed in Jubilee setup with an active DSP. 

 

TAD TD-4002....    To be honest, they are not worth the money at the current unobtainium costs they are going for... Plus its always a gamble if the BE diaphragms are in working order, if not your in it for even more money.

 

Instead, opt for the Faital HF20AT drivers or the Radian BE drivers.

The Faitals are now discontinued but you can still find them at a fraction of the price of the TAD and the Radian BE.

 

I am currently running the Faital HF20AT drivers with a First Watt J2 amp it would be very very hard to tell the difference between the TADs in a blind test.

 

My last suggestion would be trying to go all balanced if possible.

 

Jubilees are not for the faint of heart and while Cory and Roy do their best to get these things as close as possible to Plug and Play, it will take some serious time to dial them in for that last 10% of fidelity...    It took me  just over a year to get mine to where i would say they are perfect.

 

Good luck with your Jubilee journey, they will be the last speaker you will ever own.

 

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10 hours ago, Chris A said:

I think a lot of folks are misled by typical "audiophile memes" that mislead those searching for the best sound--especially those bitten by the Jubilee bug.  One of those audiophile memes is "the anti-digital lie" that attempts to dissuade use of quality DSP crossovers--such as a Xilica XP or XD series

 

Speaking for myself, I was concerned about several things:

 

* Additional components in the system - both the cost of this and the perception / misconception that 'simple is better'

* Fear of my own lack of knowledge - I was worried that the water would be too deep at the deep end with the Xilica stuff.

* Fear that I was being influenced by a very small (and likely insane) group of isolated audio enthusiasts.

 

I will expand on this a little in an effort to show the bridges I have been able to cross towards a sound quality I would not have previously considered available in the home for less than hundreds of thousands of dollars...

 

My previous 'best' system was Khorns powered by a beautiful type 45 SET amp, directly out of Sony XA7ES cd player.  How could you get simpler than that? And it sounded really good.  Most people who heard this setup were astounded.  The simple effectiveness of this system certainly clouded my judgement.  It sounded far better than complex systems I heard in the shop I worked at, and at various audipohile dens I visited.  Before I took the plunge and bought the Xilica, I was extremely biased against these complicated setups.  What I was missing was that I had lucked onto a good combination, but that this was only one way of achieving a great result, and in fairness, the result was limited compared to my current setup.

 

For me, I was terrified I would not be able to operate the Xilica correctly.  It is a learning curve, no doubt, and I really only have my toes wet at this point, but even with my limited testing equipment, a couple of ok ears,  and help from the forum here, I have been able to muddle my way through the Xilica to reach greater heights than anything I have heard before in passive setups.  Like switching from Android to Apple, it takes a bit to get your head around what does what, but a couple of months in and I am able to make effective adjustments on the fly.  Lots more to learn.

 

Finding the likes of Coytee, ChrisA etc on here and reading their posts stirred something in me - but I was very wary .  I have heard some pretty astounding claims from people that own Lowther drivers and other fabulously isolated products that ALMOST steered me down those paths.  In this case, I believe that trusting the writings here are a very worthwhile exercise in faith.  The OP is on the right path buying the Jub setup - keep the faith going, Friend, and trust what these boys say about the Xilica etc.


Lastly, I have a friend who is mad keen on the "analogue sound" - he is really only interested in systems that sound warm and romantic, tubey, vinyl-ey etc.  I have a Xilica program set up to his taste, and switch to that before he comes over.  He loves the system and the warm, open glowing sound on these settings.  When he leaves, I switch back to my own preference, which is a bit more analytical and sharper.  The Xilica, and learning how to drive it, gives me the ability to scratch many itches in this respect.  I am learning that with great amplification, the PEQ can be adjusted to make the system sound like just about anything you may want.  With lesser amplifiers, the same cannot quite be said - you can only go so far to PEQ "up"  the signal enough to beat the bad amplifier. 

 

For my money, starting fresh I would consider Jubilee and Xilica as the essential components, then a nice Class A amp for up top, and something with a bit of curry down below.  That will put you 90% of the way to Nirvana, then tweaking the xilica and other things from there.  I'm still using $2 cables on everything......

 

Best of luck to the OP.

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I don't want to be rude here, ...but you may regret NOT using an XILICA with the JUBES ! 

 

An Xilica XP model is the easiest to use,  and most certainly greatest budget-friendly DSP on the planet, in my opinion ! 

That paired with the perfect PreAmp and Amps are THE winning combination, in JUBILEE  Land !

 

I recommend you demoing a JUbilee/Xilica system near you. If near DFW area...go see CHRIS ; He'll make a believer out of you, I guarantee.

 

Best of luck on your journey to audio euphoria.

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I do feel the concerns that @Ziggurat has voiced above. I try to be sensitive to every issue that he brought up.  The problem is: how to you explain to someone how well these perform? On the other hand,  I've heard nothing that could touch their performance anywhere in a home-sized listening room. I do know one thing: you don't convey that knowledge by staying silent about how well they perform. 

 

Concerning @Born2RockU, I believe that I have a common feel for what attracts him to Jubs.  He's a professional percussionist/drummer.  I also have had a background as a classically trained musician. I personally believe that there is something that musicians listen for--that others probably don't hear (or don't value if they hear it).  These loudspeakers clearly have what I believe musicians listen for. 

 

In my case, I bought Jubilees 12 years ago (December 2007) without having heard them before. After 12 years of listening, tweaking, and listening, and I'm still blown away with their inherent performance capabilities...that I'm still discovering via the Xilica and room acoustics tweaking. 

 

Chris

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12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I do feel the concerns that @Ziggurat has voiced above. I try to be sensitive to every issue that he brought up.  The problem is: how to you explain to someone how well these perform? On the other hand,  I've heard nothing that could touch their performance anywhere in a home-sized listening room. I do know one thing: you don't convey that knowledge by staying silent about how well they perform. 

 

Yes, and now I find myself navigating those waters - I don't want to sound like a loon advancing the Jube/Xilica cause.  The reality is we should be shouting this stuff from the rooftops, because they are THAT good.  But I hope that circumspect and careful comments are useful in themselves 🙂

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On 10/29/2019 at 4:29 PM, babadono said:

I know some are happy with Jubes with passive crossovers. Don't know if anyone has done analog active. Will you be able to set delays for driver alignments?

And oh yea "We don't need no stinking TADS":)  Enjoy the stock drivers for a while, you may thoroughly enjoy them and find no need to change.

 

I think @mark1101 did this.  I think he's got an analog equalizer mated with a passive crossover and I think he likes it a great deal.

 

I don't think (but don't know) that you can delay the signals.  You can do something about 'group delays' but that's way over my head.

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On 10/26/2019 at 8:24 PM, charbuggie said:

I know it is crazy not going with a xilica

 

Just so I know you know....  (and I realize others don't know so, if they read this, then they too will know!)

 

I have an extra EV DX-38 lying about.  I also have an extra TAD driver laying about.

 

If/once these arrive at your place, you are welcome to plug them into your system so you can do a side by side.  TAD vs the now stock (K691 I think?) driver.  I don't have the stock curve for the K691 but would imagine it would be easy to obtain from someone.

 

As has been said above...  "to be blunt" you live close enough that trying the above is a no-brainer!!

 

This would perhaps put clarity in your TAD questions...  I've never heard the new driver so have no thoughts on it.  I DO think the stock K69 driver when I got mine, sounded fine.  In my ignorance, I was blissful with it.  Once I heard a side by side with the TAD, it was easy to hear the difference so I got a pair.

 

I don't have some of the other drivers people are using so can't offer a variety of choices...  just the TAD and K69.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ziggurat said:

Fear that I was being influenced by a very small (and likely insane) group of isolated audio enthusiasts.

Yep that's us, WELCOME:)

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15 hours ago, Coytee said:

 

I think @mark1101 did this.  I think he's got an analog equalizer mated with a passive crossover and I think he likes it a great deal.

 

I don't think (but don't know) that you can delay the signals.  You can do something about 'group delays' but that's way over my head.

 

I did have an all analog setup with my 3-way jubs using passives and a quality 31 band graphic eq.  That setup was simple, sounded good, and I enjoyed it for several months.

 

My current setup is all digital and uses even less equipment than the simpler passive solution.  I replaced my passives and eq unit with a xilica processor and replaced my MC402, 2 channel amp with an MC8207, 7 channel amp.  So I still have only one amp in the system for powering all 6 channels.  I am really enjoying this setup as the overall control capabilities are outstanding and the sound is closer to my end goal.

 

Both setups were clean sounding but the digital sounds more pleasing to me at this point and is significantly more adjustable.

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20 hours ago, MisterVego said:

TAD TD-4002....    To be honest, they are not worth the money at the current unobtainium costs they are going for... Plus its always a gamble if the BE diaphragms are in working order, if not your in it for even more money.

 

 

I have used a few different drivers on my 402s and 510s...........and by comparison I would have to say the TAD 4002s SURELY are worth the money.

 

First of all what you see are high asking prices.  I have purchased 3 pair and usually I get the them down to 50% of the asking price because it seems no one offers those high prices.  In fact recently I purchased a pair from Canada for around $900 (eBay).

 

There were several different version of those drivers.  They all look alike from the outside.  I would wind up with mixed versions but EVERY TIME they curve virtually identically and every one has had the original beryllium diaphragms.  You can't tell them apart by measurement or sound.

 

The bottom line is that there are some very good drivers out there that come close.  But you definitely give up a little performance that you can't get back any other way.

 

I had a pair of BMS 4592NDs.  I think those were about the closest.  Sounded very nice, but I did not prefer them and sold them.  As well as they could measure, they never sounded as smooth as the TADs and were more difficult to EQ in my room and system.

 

YMMV.................but don't be afraid to go after used TADs.  I have never been burned.

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2 hours ago, mark1101 said:

I had a pair of BMS 4592NDs.  I think those were about the closest.  Sounded very nice, but I did not prefer them and sold them.

I'm running one of those in the center K-402-MEH. I've found that they need a little delay on the HF diaphragm channel.  Once that is done, they perform like TAD 4002s.  Here is a phase response plot of a K-402/TAD 4002/Jub bass bin (violet trace color) and K-402-MEH/BMS 4592ND (lighter blue trace color).  The third trace is of the surround ESS AMT-1 sitting on top of a Belle bass bin.  All three are using Danley-style crossover filters that do not insert added phase delays:

 

Phase Response of 5.1 Array.jpg

 

group delay response:

 

Group Delay Response of 5.1 Array.jpg

 

and finally step response (almost perfect):

 

Typical Step Response.jpg

 

Chris

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18 hours ago, Chris A said:

I personally believe that there is something that musicians listen for--that others probably don't hear (or don't value if they hear it).  These loudspeakers clearly have what I believe musicians listen for. 

I like to think of it as dynamics, which the Jubes have in spades. Of course it is not exactly the same as a live performance and is very recording dependent.

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I think the winning combination for Jubes after reading every piece of info with the word jubilee in it on the internet during my journey is xilica active crossover, radian 950BePb, and first watt on the k402.

 

As seen in this thread you can see the trend. Jubes run passively just leaves way too much performance on the table.

 

I have the non beryllium radian 950s and love them dearly. I can’t wait to upgrade the Jubes to the Be version and move the standard radians into my k510 cornwall surrounds. The Radian drivers are much more affordable than TAD, you’re buying a new driver rather than used, they currently in production, have a beryllium option, considered equal performance to TAD, etc. 

 

There are just gobs and gobs of info out there why first watt amps are so fantastic. 

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Do whatever it takes to easily get rolling with Jubilees is my advice. Worry about the rest later. They will sound awesome wether active or passive. Just get them up and singing. Personally I tried a active, analog active and passive. I just happen to prefer passive. I biamp sometimes and sometimes I don't. I would go to the pilgrimage in Spring if you haven't heard them. Roy's lab Jubilees sound amazing. The best I've ever heard them and this is active with some solid state. Just. Good lucik...

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Having gone down this path and also an owner, there is a reason everyone is running active. Probably near 1000 pages of info at this point. 
 

Subscribing though because I’d like to see this ones journey. 
 

Also another can of worms... start reading audio science review (ASR) forum if you really want your analog perceptions challenged or rather measured 😁

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I vote for the active route.

 

I think the Xilica is logical and intuitive to use. The layout just make sense. Getting the system to perform better than a passive version if willing to learn how to use REW is within reach for most people. I would like to highlight the fact that a lot of people in this hobby use a lot of time tweaking anyway. With a passive version your stuck with changing amps and cables which don't add a lot of difference. With a active version the difference can be from subtle to a different setup, it does not cost anything, it is reversible and you learn a lot of what really matters to improve the sound. 

 

I am using the K-402 with Radian 950BePB in a two way by the way. 

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On 10/29/2019 at 5:13 PM, Edgar said:

 

I looked at the schematic for the unit that you referenced in a later post. They use a string of 1st-order allpass filters, which approximate delay over a modest bandwidth.

 

 

Digital delay is trivially easy -- store the samples in memory.

 

Not only is digital delay easy to set, it’s also easy to adjust for new gear.  Okay, I’m running JubScala IIs, which some would call only half-Jubilees, but the total setup is very similar, except for the bass cabinets.  I made it as simple as possible:  a matched pair of high-quality power amps (for very simple gain matching and consistent timbre from bottom to top), a Dx38 processor (the same as Roy was using in the early stages), and a pair of K510 horns with the included K-69-A drivers, on top of my old La Scalas.  

 

It was easy to punch in the proper time delay with the Dx.  Since it was made for pro sound use, indoors or outdoors, it even has an adjustment for ambient temperature, because the speed of sound varies as the temperature varies.  This would make a difference if you were the sound man setting the delay between the stage speakers and the delayed speaker towers out in the audience at a big outdoor music festival or sports event.  A pair of Dx38s was used for the PA system at the Canada Winter Games back in 2011 or so, which would be a challenge for any gear.

 

I just set it at 70 degrees and forgot about it.  I followed the rest of the suggested settings and was very happy with the sound.  Nine years later, I got a pair of K402 horns, and it was easy to punch in the proper delay time for them, because they’re longer than the 510 horns.

 

As for the EQ settings, rather than swapping passive crossover parts if you update your system, you just punch in the new settings.  The Dx38 has about 30 preset programmes for various combinations of Electro-Voice concert speakers, plus 30 pages for user programs.  Six months after the initial setup, Roy issued updated settings that improved the sound at 18kHz.  No prob, just open a second page and assign a date and name to it.  Nine years later, when I got the 402 horns, it was easy to open up a third page and optimize the Dx for them.  There are still 27 pages available for further updates.

 

Quite a few years ago, Roy issued a 32 Hz bass boost for the Jubilee.  In the same way, it was easy for Jubilee owners to update their settings, and it’s easy to switch back and forth to be sure which settings you prefer.

 

You can do it that simply, and have great sound.  It really is a set-it-and-forget-it system.  Once you get it set up at first, of course.  That can be challenging if it’s new to you, but it’s worth it.

 

If you want to chase the ultimate sound, you can do that, too.  Chris A has been tweaking and learning for a long time, and he seems to be happier and happier with each upgrade.  The choice is yours, and you can decide at any time.

 

The Xilica units are more modern and likely offer more flexibility and possibilities than the Dx38s.  Once again, once you get your system set up, you can leave it and enjoy great sound, or explore how much greater sound you can find.  Chances are good that at least one Forum member has been there already, so the shared knowledge in this place is a really big help.

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On 10/30/2019 at 3:18 PM, Coytee said:

 

If/once these arrive at your place, you are welcome to plug them into your system so you can do a side by side.  TAD vs the now stock (K691 I think?) driver.  I don't have the stock curve for the K691 but would imagine it would be easy to obtain from someone.

 

This would perhaps put clarity in your TAD questions...  I've never heard the new driver so have no thoughts on it.  I DO think the stock K69 driver when I got mine, sounded fine.  In my ignorance, I was blissful with it.  Once I heard a side by side with the TAD, it was easy to hear the difference so I got a pair.

 

I don't have some of the other drivers people are using so can't offer a variety of choices...  just the TAD and K69.

 

 

Coytee, as you likely know, the K-69 and the K-69-A are two different drivers.  As I understand it, the K-69-A was a lower-cost driver than its predecessor, the K-69, with lower performance as well.  The K-691, on the other hand, is an improvement over both of them, so it could be considered two steps better than the K-69-A.  Early last Spring, I bought a pair of new K-691s from Born2RockU, who was replacing them with Faital drivers for his awesome system.

 

To be sure my ears weren't being fooled, I brought my young nephew over to help with lifting the 402 horn/driver/stand/base combos down and back up, and to see if he could hear the difference.  As soon as the new drivers were connected and positioned, I played the same song I had played just a few minutes previously through the K-69-As.  My 60-something ears and his 16-year-old ears heard the difference immediately, and it was a definite improvement.  More clarity, "lifting of veils", etc.  It was definitely an upgrade!

 

It's not just something that shows up during critical listening, it's audible all the time, and now the system is simply more pleasant to listen to than it was before, and it was pretty fine before.  Recommended!

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I have a First Watt F3 clone I don't use anymore if there's any interest. I put it here first, then it will go one the Garage Sale, Ebay, Craigslit, etc. route.

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