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jdmccall

Klipsch Missing Boat w/o "Heritage Subs?

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6 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I'm glad y'all who own those huge theater subs are happy with them.  Good for you, but that's just not what I'm talking about.  Those are not even designed for home use.  They are designed for theaters and perhaps other industrial uses.  I'm not familiar with them at all and have no desire to own one. 

 

What I would like to see from Klipsch is just a good, high-quality, high-output series of subs that are designed to be really good aesthetic matches with current and past Heritage speakers.  Performance-wise, the goal would be to match speaker output at crossover (maybe 40-60 Hz) and then just extend it on down as far and as cleanly as possible, keeping price and size manageable.  Tall order maybe.  Obviously, there's different ideas on what a "Heritage" sub should be, but I'm talking about one that would have appeal to a large cross-section of Klipsch Heritage owners.

When you design a subwoofers you can have a sub that:

 

Goes low

 

Gets loud

 

Is relatively small and manageable in size

 

 

Pick two out of 3.  Thats all you get. Which 2 parameters would you use to design a Heritage sub?  If you look at the Heritage line of speakers it would be the first two.

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13 minutes ago, Coytee said:

Damn that Mr. Hoffman....

He rules with an iron fist.............

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https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-P-312W-Palladium-312-W-110V-MRT-Subwoofer-Merlot/dp/B00MA5204M/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8

 

Only 2 left. I wish I could afford this now. Sure would be nice to build a DIY pair if I could find the plans. Reminds me of the Triax sub I used to have.

 

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, NBPK402 said:

https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-P-312W-Palladium-312-W-110V-MRT-Subwoofer-Merlot/dp/B00MA5204M/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8

 

Only 2 left. I wish I could afford this now. Sure would be nice to build a DIY pair if I could find the plans. Reminds me of the Triax sub I used to have.

 

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

By far the best looking line Klipsch ever built, IMO.

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I didn't start this thread to debate subwoofer design or preference (specifically, industrial horns vs consumer ported or sealed), but to discuss the possibility of commercially viable sub designs that Klipsch might introduce to sell with and for their Heritage speakers.  But good threads often take lots of twists and turns.  This one just turned a little harder and sooner than I expected.:wacko2: 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, jdmccall said:

I didn't start this thread to debate subwoofer design or preference, but to discuss the possibility of commercially viable sub designs that Klipsch might introduce to sell with and for their Heritage speakers.  But good threads often take lots of twists and turns.  This one just turned a little harder and sooner than I expected.:wacko2: 

 

 

You're speaking about  a sub that doesn't exist so there'll be a lot of opinions out there.  If you're worried about thread drift then you're in the wrong forum, LOL.  That seems to be the norm around here.  For the record, I'd love to see what Klipsch would come up with for a Heritage "inspired" sub.  It certainly wouldn't be a heritage sub as there never was one to begin with.

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2 hours ago, Edgar said:

Certainly none taken, I had no clue.  I do however think, after reading that, that he could have gotten up off the couch and accomplished a thing or two :emotion-21:

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10 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I'm glad y'all who own those huge theater subs are happy with them.  Good for you, but that's just not what I'm talking about.  Those are not even designed for home use.  They are designed for theaters and perhaps other industrial uses.  I'm not familiar with them at all and have no desire to own one....

 

 

Fwiw, These aren't my quotes but I posted them earlier in case you missed it.  Btw, does Klipsch still make the KW-120 THX subs? 

19 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

t's been awhile that Klipsch has released the KW-120-THX subs , which have been described as the "heritage subs people have been asking for" by several members and administrators who have them.

 

19 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

They're the only ones that can truely keep up with the Heritage line by themselves. Therefore, we can deduce that KW-120-THX = Ultra Line = Very Powerful = Good match for Heritage = "Heritage subwoofer."

 

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5 hours ago, MookieStl said:

@dtel was not suggesting not using an amp for the sub, just no amp built into the sub. I prefer outboard amps. There are plenty of good ones out there. They are easy to use (no crawling around behind the sub etc), easy to upgrade, easier to repair, easier to replace. Plus many options with DSP etc.

TRUE, I meant yes to an amp, but no to a sub plate amp.

 

Like Mookie said an outboard amp for the reasons he said, and they seem to last forever and easily switched.

 

11 hours ago, jdmccall said:

Obviously, there's different ideas on what a "Heritage" sub should be, but I'm talking about one that would have appeal to a large cross-section of Klipsch Heritage owners.

Yes but most people agree it would need the performance first and have the Heritage looks. But something like that will be large, no way around it unless you give up the performanceand most people would not swap that for looks.

 

I say large because only a Heresy or maby Cornwall could get by without horn loading, the other Heritage would have to be horn loaded for sure. 

 

Your point is also a big problem for them to design, probably why they are looking at horn subs, so far it seems the only thing is bigger than a Cornwall, in width anyway, no not the 1502.

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54 minutes ago, dtel said:

I say large because only a Heresy or maby Cornwall could get by without horn loading, the other Heritage would have to be horn loaded for sure. 

 

You could fit a pretty good direct-radiator subwoofer into a Cornwall-sized box. I've actually been experimenting with design possibilities.

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10 minutes ago, Edgar said:

 

You could fit a pretty good direct-radiator subwoofer into a Cornwall-sized box. I've actually been experimenting with design possibilities.

Your probably right, but for LaScala and Khorn a true sub for them would need to be a horn, in my opinion anyway.......not that they have ever ask for my opinion. 

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9 minutes ago, dtel said:

Your probably right, but for LaScala and Khorn a true sub for them would need to be a horn, in my opinion anyway.......not that they have ever ask for my opinion. 

 

I agree. Problem is miniaturizing those 55-foot wavelengths. 

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14 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I'm glad y'all who own those huge theater subs are happy with them.  Good for you, but that's just not what I'm talking about.  Those are not even designed for home use.  They are designed for theaters and perhaps other industrial uses.  I'm not familiar with them at all and have no desire to own one. 

 

What I would like to see from Klipsch is just a good, high-quality, high-output series of subs that are designed to be really good aesthetic matches with current and past Heritage speakers.  Performance-wise, the goal would be to match speaker output at crossover (maybe 40-60 Hz) and then just extend it on down as far and as cleanly as possible, keeping price and size manageable.  Tall order maybe.  Obviously, there's different ideas on what a "Heritage" sub should be, but I'm talking about one that would have appeal to a large cross-section of Klipsch Heritage owners.

 

 

 

How old are you, are you a kid cause you sure don't know your klipsch History!

 

PWK created his first speaker the klipschorn, a home speaker to reproduce the sound of those giant horn speakers he grew up on in the Movie Theatres.

 

Furthermore, Klipsch the company is obviously not owned by Paul who has left us, but they are in it for the money, NOT the nostalgia!

 

Any genuine long term Klipsch lover would NEVER call headphones, subwoofers or any design PWK wasn't personally in "HERITAGE!"

 

Want to know when Paul sold the Company? PWK was a genious and was a modest man. PWKs logo was klipsch with a lower case "k". As soon as Fred bought the company, he changed to an upper case "K". This speaks volumes about "who" both men were.

 

Roger

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I don't believe at all that a sub designed to be used with a fully horn-loaded speaker (k-horn/belle/la scala) has to itself be horn-loaded.  It comes down to the wavelengths being dealt with and the issue of practicality.  Power is cheap and doesn't even have to take up much space (class D).  Drivers capable of extreme excursion are available (Yes, I know: more excursion equals more distortion.).  I think the secret is in the crossover.  Keep the x/o point low enough and the low-pass filter steep enough.  Go acoustic suspension to keep extension deep, distortion low and size reasonable.  I think a sub could be designed that would please 95% of Heritage fans.  The other 5% may already have pro designs and are happy campers.  So...there's my design brief.😎

 

The KW-120THX is probably the closest thing to my idea of what a "Heritage" sub should be, that Klipsch has in their line right now.  But it doesn't look the part.  It could be made to look the part if Klipsch chose to do so, I'm sure.  Make it a 15"'er and style it to match Heritage and I'm in.  If a person want's more performance, buy multiples!

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15 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I don't believe at all that a sub designed to be used with a fully horn-loaded speaker (k-horn/belle/la scala) has to itself be horn-loaded.  It comes down to the wavelengths being dealt with and the issue of practicality. 

If sound quality, including having very low levels of harmonic distortion, modulation distortion, compression distortion, and thermal distortion is important--as it is to most Heritage owners and lovers, then horn loading at subwoofer frequencies as actually required.  All you need to do is read PWK's Dope from Hope (including and especially this one) and other white papers to get this point.

 

Such as this (behind the Jubilee, covered with a custom quilt):

 

IMG_1334.jpg

 

If you are saying that is isn't important to retain sound quality at subwoofer frequencies, then clearly...sound quality--the reason why we have the Heritage series--doesn't matter to you, and your thread has no meaning other than "the way it looks".  Go to the Reference line (or any of the other loudspeaker lines that Klipsch produces) and pick out what you want in their direct radiating subwoofer lines, and be done with the conversation.

 

Chris

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I'd rather not have a sub than have a sub that can't keep up with horns.

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24 minutes ago, Chris A said:

If sound quality, including having very low levels of harmonic distortion, modulation distortion, compression distortion, and thermal distortion is important--as it is to most Heritage owners and lovers, then horn loading at subwoofer frequencies as actually required.

 

To be fair, even PWK said, "Among means to reduce distortion, one of the most obvious would appear to be to increase the diaphragm area. But the weight required to achieve rigidity, or the lack of rigidity, present other and more formidable problems. [...] Increasing the number of smaller direct-radiator loudspeakers has also been used. This also improves efficiency, although not to the extent realizable with well designed horns; however, the bulk and cost equal or exceed that of horns, and difficulties with polar response arise."

 

Modulation Distortion in Loudspeakers, Paul W. Klipsch, presented April 29, 1968 at the 34th Convention of the Audio Engineering Society

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51 minutes ago, seti said:

I'd rather not have a sub than have a sub that can't keep up with horns.

I don't think you're alone. 

 

However, I do see a lot of people owning Heritage with very small listening rooms that get away with little direct radiating subwoofers, because their listening room is less than half a wavelength in every direction at frequencies below 40 Hz (i.e., 28 feet).  You're into the "pressure zone" operation of the subwoofers, and as long as you don't need to use the sub very much while playing music, then you might provide a little deep bass effect. 

 

But note that I see a lot of people talk about "turning their subwoofers off for music".  That says to me that the subwoofers they are using have too much distortion, and therefore they turn them off when sound quality matters.

 

I don't turn my two tapped horn subs off at anytime the system is on (crossing with and paralleling the Jubilees and all other surround loudspeakers in the array at 40 Hz and below)--unless measuring using REW a single loudspeaker. 

 

Chris

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