Solar Panel Discussion...

[Bubo]

Application specific.

Like Wind turbines, and EVs no subsidies no sales.

A bigger problem is that none of these are recyclable with lots of toxic waste.

 

Remote Island, sure wind and solar make sense.

Next door to to a nuke, no way.

 

[pallpoul]

I did, and i can have my all system, installed, up and running for under 80 k.  My average monthly electrical bill will drop by one thousand usd. The system will pay for itself in about 6 years. Keep in mind it is a 50-kw system.

 

As for EV, I got an entry level BOLT EUV Premium few months ago, dipping my toes into the EV ecosystem, and so far, my passive savings, going from gas to electric, is about 350-400 dollars a month (monthly driving 2500 miles/month: 13.5 cents/KW price v/s 3.49 dollars/gallon).

 

I plan to buy a bigger more luxurious EV car early next year.

[Shakeydeal]

If someone wants an EV for the sake of having an EV it’s one thing. But don’t fool yourself that you are “saving the planet” or some such nonsense. There’s nothing “green” about it.

[Tom05]

Nothing wrong at all being hesitant about solar panels , lots of people  want or require a faster /larger return on their investment . Sounds  like many on the forum have installed them with good  success ,that’s great. 🤓 EV technology has been around for years , it was the battery that held it back , just 30 years ago, lead acid was the only game in town , lithium battery technology has changed everything , electric is the sustainable future , and it’s coming 🤓

[Guest Vahorns]

10 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

Nothing wrong at all being hesitant about solar panels , lots of people  want or require a faster /larger return on their investment . Sounds  like many on the forum have installed them with good  success ,that’s great. 🤓 EV technology has been around for years , it was the battery that held it back , just 30 years ago, lead acid was the only game in town , lithium battery technology has changed everything , electric is the sustainable future , and it’s coming 🤓

EVs are not a foregone conclusion at all.     The limitations of  EV vehicles are not being discussed and debated as they should be.    EVs are a very limited use case platform where efficiency and range are greatly impacted by temperature and weather conditions (See what happened in Nicole and snow).    Toyota is not all in on EVs and the environmental impact of strip mining the world for battery production is dangerous to all forms of life.   

 

Take a look at what the charge is to replace a battery after it's lost efficiency.    Also what is the EV worth in trade with a depleted battery ?   

 

These are only the tip of the iceberg of issues with EVs.  

 

[OO1]

  2 new  SUV EV 's for a little over 1 month , very satisfied 

[billybob]

Yes you do have to keep an open mind. Some are convinced already when they first enter the"discussion". First, what is the problem?

High cost of electricity?

High cost of burning fossil fuels?

High cost on our health from burning fossil fuels?

Somewhat limited supply controlled by foreign countries?

Oil concerns wanting to eek out the last bit until the well runs dry while contamination in our aquifers? For money? The oil companies have known for some time their days are numbered. That is why, for one thing, they talk green renewables, self sustainable research dollars. They see the future as a way to have their cake and eat it to. A balancing act where, they can cut the cake both ways, and down the middle.

While no one person holds the answers to the concerns, or entity, if any for our future, we do have our children who will inherent and will amend and adapt technology as it exists today. They are doing it now.

Meanwhile, we are in a transitional transfer of power.

Those yearning for the good old days of fossil fuels, will reminisce as the new generation improve the tech. as it exists today. They will use other materials for battery production and solar. Efficiencies will be their motto and their creed.

An example I can relate to is the digital domain over the analog as we speak.

The early adapters to solar are living the future. Those of us like myself will share the final bill.

Other tech will come with time.

Other ways of saying this but, we as a nation have to have "alternative"sources of energy as a national security preservation.

To not choose solar as a viable source of power as it exists today, is just delaying what will be.

Thinking one need not be a rocket scientist when observing the present, to come to a conclusion of their own, and hopefully by one's own accord, while that option exists.

Consider my view as anecdotal.

Would expect YMTV. Cool...

[captainbeefheart]

1 hour ago, Tom05 said:

lectric is the sustainable future , and it’s coming 🤓

 

You call mining rare earth metals and their toxic disposal sustainable? Learn what it's like to mine Lithium and come back to us. Our own leader helped China get the largest Cobalt mine in the hands of Chinese. You call being stuck having to purchase batteries from China "sustainable"?

 

I'm sure you have heard of supply and demand before? What happens when everyone in the USA is required to own an EV? The price of these rare earth metals will become even more expensive since the demand will only increase. Price will not go down, it will only go UP. 

 

We produce and refine the world cleanest fossil fuels. We have vasts amounts of these natural resources right here in our land. We should be pumping and refining as much as possible while we are still using crude for means of energy. We should be exporting as much as we can to Europe so they don't need Russia or Opec+. This has multiple benefits for us and them. It will greatly help stop funding Russia's wars. We won't take advantage of our own resources while we go and beg hostile foreign adversaries for their oil which makes us the biggest laughing stock on Earth. We are going around begging for something that we already have right below are feet. It makes ZERO sense. Especially since our sweet crude is far better than their sour sulfur filled crude, our oil and refining is actually the greener and more environmentally responsible oil.

 

We can never fully go to EV's, it's impossible. Solar/wind will never replace our regular means of power generation, it can't. Until we have other avenues we are stuck with oil/coal which is fine as long as it's done responsibly.

[Tom05]

32 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

You call mining rare earth metals and their toxic disposal sustainable? Learn what it's like to mine Lithium and come back to us. Our own leader helped China get the largest Cobalt mine in the hands of Chinese. You call being stuck having to purchase batteries from China "sustainable"?

 

I'm sure you have heard of supply and demand before? What happens when everyone in the USA is required to own an EV? The price of these rare earth metals will become even more expensive since the demand will only increase. Price will not go down, it will only go UP. 

 

We produce and refine the world cleanest fossil fuels. We have vasts amounts of these natural resources right here in our land. We should be pumping and refining as much as possible while we are still using crude for means of energy. We should be exporting as much as we can to Europe so they don't need Russia or Opec+. This has multiple benefits for us and them. It will greatly help stop funding Russia's wars. We won't take advantage of our own resources while we go and beg hostile foreign adversaries for their oil which makes us the biggest laughing stock on Earth. We are going around begging for something that we already have right below are feet. It makes ZERO sense. Especially since our sweet crude is far better than their sour sulfur filled crude, our oil and refining is actually the greener and more environmentally responsible oil.

 

We can never fully go to EV's, it's impossible. Solar/wind will never replace our regular means of power generation, it can't. Until we have other avenues we are stuck with oil/coal which is fine as long as it's done responsibly.

Your argument sounds more political than scientific, stick with building amps.

[captainbeefheart]

7 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

Your argument sounds more political than scientific, stick with building amps.

 

You could cover every inch of land in the USA with solar panels and it wouldn't come close to meeting our demands for energy.

 

For EV's - rare earth metals are just that, rare. You mentioned sustainability but how can something extremely rare and costly to mine be sustainable?

 

Is that scientific enough for you?

 

You brought up sustainability which encompasses many facets from cost to disposal. Very little of what I said was political, I only mentioned helping our allies as a benefit of our great resources. If you want technical arguments I can provide many detailed analysis of why solar/wind cannot handle our demands.

 

I'm an EE and so have always been fascinated and love electrical power. I'm far from against it, I'm only being realistic about it.

[richieb]

Powers that be will soon see this discussion as “political” in nature.  Little to no room is allowed these days. Deviate off the centerline and the lanesense warnings activate. A friend told me this - 😎

[captainbeefheart]

6 minutes ago, richieb said:

Powers that be will soon see this discussion as “political” in nature.  Little to no room is allowed these days. Deviate off the centerline and the lanesense warnings activate. A friend told me this - 😎

 

I agree, EV is off topic.

 

If OP wants to post his cost per kWh, monthly usage, and rough area in ft² he has for panels we can work out a mock up for his returns.

[oldtimer]

You have friends?

[richieb]

1 hour ago, richieb said:

Powers that be will soon see this discussion as “political” in nature.  Little to no room is allowed these days. Deviate off the centerline and the lanesense warnings activate. A friend told me this - 😎

 

22 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

You have friends?

You’re better than than this OT - I said friend, singular. Friends is a stretch - 

[Peter P.]

Getting back on topic:

 

I live in a condominium complex; 300 units, I think 300 acres. Excellent east/west roof exposure. Lower middle class to middle class demographic.

 

Problem is, condo owners don't own the outside of the structure, so we can't install solar on our individual units.

 

For the association to install solar on all the units would be a tremendous financial undertaking, including special assessments much like the $8k I paid when roofs were replaced. People moaned at those costs; I imagine solar conversion would be much more expensive.

 

But as a whole, I wonder whether the association would be a net producer of electricity with the result being a worthwhile payback.

 

Something tells me solar isn't providing returns attractive enough for even our association to consider it, let alone if individual owners, and homeowners in general, to benefit. Discuss.

[oldtimer]

I have a condo where solar has been installed a few years ago.  No assessments for it.  As Bubo pointed out, each case must be assessed on its own merits.  There is no generic conclusion that it either works or it doesn't.

It always comes down to the specifics.  In my other place, solar does not make sense for me because of all the shade I have created in 35 years of stewardship.  Others in the same neighborhood have installed and benefitted.  As for the future, better technology will lead to better solutions.

[OO1]

Solar is gonna take off in a few years .

- Perovskite Solar Cells  will be much lighter  ,   versus  silicon panels - Perovskite Solar Cells  have a potential  of 45% efficiency versus 20 % for silicon cells , 

[Bubo]

5 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

You call mining rare earth metals and their toxic disposal sustainable? Learn what it's like to mine Lithium and come back to us. Our own leader helped China get the largest Cobalt mine in the hands of Chinese. You call being stuck having to purchase batteries from China "sustainable"?

 

I'm sure you have heard of supply and demand before? What happens when everyone in the USA is required to own an EV? The price of these rare earth metals will become even more expensive since the demand will only increase. Price will not go down, it will only go UP. 

 

We produce and refine the world cleanest fossil fuels. We have vasts amounts of these natural resources right here in our land. We should be pumping and refining as much as possible while we are still using crude for means of energy. We should be exporting as much as we can to Europe so they don't need Russia or Opec+. This has multiple benefits for us and them. It will greatly help stop funding Russia's wars. We won't take advantage of our own resources while we go and beg hostile foreign adversaries for their oil which makes us the biggest laughing stock on Earth. We are going around begging for something that we already have right below are feet. It makes ZERO sense. Especially since our sweet crude is far better than their sour sulfur filled crude, our oil and refining is actually the greener and more environmentally responsible oil.

 

We can never fully go to EV's, it's impossible. Solar/wind will never replace our regular means of power generation, it can't. Until we have other avenues we are stuck with oil/coal which is fine as long as it's done responsibly.

Almost the entire US is sitting on a Lake of NG, oil and Coal.

Solar has applications in the South and Southwest, and Islands or remote areas, same for wind.

The internet has probably cut emissions by more than anything, enabling home businesses more than ever.

EVs may be usable in urban areas but in the burbs and rural areas not, in the cold batteries are 50% or less of their rating, so you can't drive far.

Batteries have to be charged with something, coal, hydro and nukes.

I believe the US would need to increase electric generation by between 3-5 times or more to charge cars and we don't have enough generation now.

Elect is going up so charging EVs is going up. They also contribute zero for the streets they drive on another subsidy from all other vehicles of any kind. No subsidies, no sales.

 

 

[Bubo]

38 minutes ago, OO1 said:

Solar is gonna take off in a few years .

- Perovskite Solar Cells  will be much lighter  ,   versus  silicon panels - Perovskite Solar Cells  have a potential  of 45% efficiency versus 20 % for silicon cells , 

Who is making them, are they selling stock ?

[Bubo]

49 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

I have a condo where solar has been installed a few years ago.  No assessments for it.  As Bubo pointed out, each case must be assessed on its own merits.  There is no generic conclusion that it either works or it doesn't.

It always comes down to the specifics.  In my other place, solar does not make sense for me because of all the shade I have created in 35 years of stewardship.  Others in the same neighborhood have installed and benefited.  As for the future, better technology will lead to better solutions.

I watched a vid of a guy in OK if I recall correctly.

He did his own solar build in the small fenced back yard

and had it planned and wired to either 2-3 window AC units

no connection to the grid or the rest of the house.

His goal was keeping the house at 72-75 on 100 degree days which he achieved.

Apparently this was most of his electric bill

Mine flips to NG in winter as electric use drops way down. Ice Cold IL

No reason you couldn't switch the cells to running some electric radiators in the winter to supplement the central heat during the daytime.