hey deano (snipers and the jub envious, STAY AWAY)

[boom3]

For equal wire gage and target inductance, an iron core inductor will have less DCR than an air core since less wire (i.e. shorter length) is required.

[Deang]

It's 24dB/octave, I think it's a Linkwitz-Riley alignment.

It's my understanding that air cores have less DCR than the iron core types...

If the wire is the same size, the iron core and steel laminate types will win every time (for the same value). The schematic specified steel laminates, so that's what I used. The great majority of them are in the LCR's to pull down the response, so I didn't see much point in using air cores. Also, Litz has higher DCR than the same size in solid wire. However, in spite of the higher DCR, there is supposedly less high frequency loss (because of better 'Q'). At any rate, I suspect room acoustics and how one actually hears will have greater impact on the voicing than the overall differences in loss between the parts.

is it possible that the extra 4 ohms you're adding to the circuit is making up for less resistance in the inductors?

Yes, it's a series resistor between the HF network and driver, so it becomes part of the total loss in the filter.

And doesn't changing the value of the resistor slightly change the effective crossover point too?

Yup. It's a single resistor, not an L-pad -- so it does change the impedance a little. A single four ohm resistor corresponds to 3.5dB of attenuation, and changes the nominal impedance of the driver from 8 to about 12 ohms. Ideally, one might use the single resistor to dial in the attenuation, then lock it down with a L-pad or autoformer. Al's attenuator is ideal, and is the direction I'm going in: http://www.alkeng.com/pad.html

I've already removed the resistors, I only used them so I could drive up the volume without having the horns drive me out of the room. I must be getting old or something, because I really enjoy the sound best late at night with the lower volumes -- and they don't need any attenuation for that kind of listening, at least not in my room. Attenuators would be nice to have in the network though for those times I get the itch to push them a little.

[meagain]

OK - how about order type or
slope type? Big or little slope? I'm trying to get a
crude grasp.

I will have to let Roy or someone else answer that,
I just don't know.

I would defer to Roy too, but it looks like 24dB/octave on both sides
with 2 sets of EQ on the HF and 1 set of EQ on the LF. I just wanted to
chime in and mention that 24dB/octave is considered steep in the pro
audio world. It's certainly not a little slope []

If so, then I have to question if the differences heard between going from a low-slope 'A'-ish crossover in the Khorn to a serious slope in a Jub.... might be partially due to the crossover. And that coming from or comparing a seriously steep slope khorn to a jub might be less intense. Not to mention more of an apples to apples comparison.

???

[mark1101]

Dean,

Did you use mylar caps? What caps did you end up using?

[rigma]

Dean,

I have an extra pair of Al's attenuator that I will try tonight.

rigma

[pauln]

OK - how about order type or slope type? Big or little slope? I'm trying to get a crude grasp.

I will have to let Roy or someone else answer that, I just don't know.

I would defer to Roy too, but it looks like 24dB/octave on both sides with 2 sets of EQ on the HF and 1 set of EQ on the LF. I just wanted to chime in and mention that 24dB/octave is considered steep in the pro audio world. It's certainly not a little slope []

If so, then I have to question if the differences heard between going from a low-slope 'A'-ish crossover in the Khorn to a serious slope in a Jub.... might be partially due to the crossover. And that coming from or comparing a seriously steep slope khorn to a jub might be less intense. Not to mention more of an apples to apples comparison.

???

The crossover order relates to the slope:

1st order is -6dB/octave - used in the original type A

2nd order is -12dB/octave

3rd is -18

4rth is -24

5th is -30

6th is -36dB/octave - used in the AL-4 and the AK-4

With a three way speaker there are six places that may be influenced by the network:

Lower leg of the bass, upper leg of the bass, lower and upper of the mid, and low/up of the tweeter. Sometimes the influence is nothing (0 order) as in many Klipsch networks that let the low end of the bass, the high end of the mid, and the high end of the tweeter just go as far as they can... Many networks use different slope combos for the individual crossovers (different slopes for the upper of bass and lower of mid; or upper of mid and lower of tweet)....... maybe some out there can fill in the gaps and fully describe ALL the common networks used on Klipsch Heritage...

[kaiser SET say]

Sweet Dean, I heard just a portion of what you hear on that trip to hope in late 2005 and I told Seti then that this speaker would take off if it were built for consumers. What do you think about that now? I hope PWK is dancing a jig right now with all the new owners of his (and lest I not forget Royd[]) project juby[]

I am a little envious but no sniper 4 sure[] In the late great words of MLK "I have a dream" and one day I hope to fulfil it[8]

[BEC]

"Sweet Dean"???

[Daddy Dee]

"Sweet Dean"???

Well, I think Dean is sweet. Well, on a good day.

[mikebse2a3]

Have you done any measurements to verify/quantify what your ears are telling you? With that fancy ETF and all I would be looking for resonances and stuff at the frequencies you're attenuating at. Or heck, maybe it's room related?

I don't want to turn this into an amplifier debate, but I've read from numerous sources about how SET topologies tend to have a more difficult time with impedance swings. Namely rises in the frequency response and resonances at impedance peaks. I've been reading lately about crossover design techniques that will resonate opposite the driver to cancel out the effect. Another alternative is to simply use an amp with a higher damping factor (which will reduce, but not completely eliminate the problem). There's tradeoffs to every design so I hope I'm not busting any bubbles by proposing ideas that I'm not an expert on. I'm just proposing the argument in hopes of learning something. But seeing as you have a means to measure, I would be curious to see what they indicate (or if they don't indicate anything).

---

-Mike Bentz

Hey Mike

What I was suggesting was since anyone running the EV DX38 Crossover/EQ could easily implement a slight HF Shelve Filter for some HF Level Adjustment very easily to compensate for issues like Variations in Recordings, Rooms, Amplifiers and Personel Taste Even. Roy has offered something similar in his passive crossover with the resistor impedence option he gave to suite personel taste in the HF Range.

I have a few recordings that sound best with the orginal settings Roy gave us but interestingly and as should be expected Recordings vary so much especially in the HF Levels that I've found some that sound best with (-1db) to (-2db) of cut in the HF range so being able to adjust this range lets me listen to more recordings with what sounds like a better tonal balance.

So far actually I've not found any recordings that I would consider of good quality otherwise that I would want more HF Response but I have several that do benefit from mostly about -1db of cut in the HF range and a max of only -2db of cut in the HF range so far. For me anyway Roy's settings are very close to ideal in my particular system/room setup.

Mike I've not had the time to really look at this with the ETF Program but as one of the variables I mentioned yes there could be some Amplifier/Driver interaction going on but to be honest It's a curosity for me but not anything I would even consider a problem because again all I'm talking about is maybe -1db to -2db of atenuation. That being said again out of curosity I do want to in the future look at this interaction especially around the 2khz area where there is a small rise in the impedance of the K402/K69-A to about 15 ohms. Like you said sometimes the Tube Amplifier's (low damping/high impedence output) will interact with the loudspeaker but just because the Measured Voltage Output of the Amplifier might track the Speakers Impedence Swings(ie: the Voltage will rise as the speakers impedance increases) more than a Solid State Amplifier in general this Higher Impedance does draw less current from the amplifier so the power delivered to the speaker could still be close to the same so acoustically it might not be audible like one might think at first. Mike when I do test this some with the ETF I'll post anything that might corespond to any of this.

Mike as you suggest at sometime I do want to try some solid state amps on the Jubilee to hear how that sounds also because of that type of amplifiers ability to ignore impedence variations to some extent and whatever Roy was using in Hope sure sounded good!

As far as the room without question it could easily be at play with any HF preferences.

mike tn

[DrWho]

Thanks Dean...but do you think 10W on that attenuator is gonna be enough power handling? []

Ok seriously...what amp are you running right now? Are you still running that 'little' digital amp? And are you really achieving "LOUD" with your hard rock? Or is it more of a 'loud'? Perhaps that little extra efficiency is a bigger deal than I thought it was...[]

[DrWho]

If so, then I have to question if the differences heard between going

from a low-slope 'A'-ish crossover in the Khorn to a serious slope in a

Jub.... might be partially due to the crossover. And that coming

from or comparing a seriously steep slope khorn to a jub might be less

intense. Not to mention more of an apples to apples comparison.

Sounds like you're on a crossover streak [] I would argue that the

final acoustic output of the system matters more than the type and

slope of crossovers being used. I suppose one might argue that certain

types lend themselves to better integration, but I don't think there is

anything inherant to the sound of "shallow" versus "steep". In the case

of the Jubilee, I think the bigger advantage is the closer matched

polars in the crossover region. The K400 is gonna be mostly

omni-directional at 400Hz whereas the bassbin is gonna be beaming - the

huge offset causes a disjoint in the off-axis response (which is heard

as the reflections in the room). You've got the same problem between

the squawker and the tweeter too....beaming HF on the K400 with wide

polars on the tweeter. The Jubilee only has one crossover transition

and the polars are matched much closer. In fact, the only reason the

"tweeter" is so big is to maintain a matched polar response all the way

down to 500Hz (to ensure a smooth crossover transition). Pick any slope

or crossover topology and the Jubilee will always have a "better

crossover".

[DrWho]

What I was suggesting was since anyone running the EV DX38 Crossover/EQ could easily implement a slight HF Shelve Filter for some HF Level Adjustment very easily to compensate for issues like Variations in Recordings, Rooms, Amplifiers and Personel Taste Even. Roy has offered something similar in his passive crossover with the resistor impedence option he gave to suite personel taste in the HF Range.

I have a few recordings that sound best with the orginal settings Roy gave us but interestingly and as should be expected Recordings vary so much especially in the HF Levels that I've found some that sound best with (-1db) to (-2db) of cut in the HF range so being able to adjust this range lets me listen to more recordings with what sounds like a better tonal balance.

So far actually I've not found any recordings that I would consider of good quality otherwise that I would want more HF Response but I have several that do benefit from mostly about -1db of cut in the HF range and a max of only -2db of cut in the HF range so far. For me anyway Roy's settings are very close to ideal in my particular system/room setup.

Mike I've not had the time to really look at this with the ETF Program but as one of the variables I mentioned yes there could be some Amplifier/Driver interaction going on but to be honest It's a curosity for me but not anything I would even consider a problem because again all I'm talking about is maybe -1db to -2db of atenuation. That being said again out of curosity I do want to in the future look at this interaction especially around the 2khz area where there is a small rise in the impedance of the K402/K69-A to about 15 ohms. Like you said sometimes the Tube Amplifier's (low damping/high impedence output) will interact with the loudspeaker but just because the Measured Voltage Output of the Amplifier might track the Speakers Impedence Swings(ie: the Voltage will rise as the speakers impedance increases) more than a Solid State Amplifier in general this Higher Impedance does draw less current from the amplifier so the power delivered to the speaker could still be close to the same so acoustically it might not be audible like one might think at first. Mike when I do test this some with the ETF I'll post anything that might corespond to any of this.

Mike as you suggest at sometime I do want to try some solid state amps on the Jubilee to hear how that sounds also because of that type of amplifiers ability to ignore impedence variations to some extent and whatever Roy was using in Hope sure sounded good!

As far as the room without question it could easily be at play with any HF preferences.

I guess that woulda been a better way to ask it...."are you tweaking for source material? or the speakers? or the amps? the room? whatever?" - seems you answered all those questions though - thanks. It seem y'all are in agreement that the HF horn is on the hot side though, which I find very interesting. You would think that with the huge bandwidth being covered by that "tweeter" that it would be more susceptible to power compression than the bass bin. And seems even Roy is in agreement having provided an option for attenuation inside the crossover.

I'm not sure how to imply it in my writing, so I'll just come out and mention that there's no reason to "worry about problems" unless your ears tell you something is amiss (whether or not the "problems" are legitimate or not)...just a little side point I wanted to make.

As far as the voltage at the output of the amp...the acoustical power generated by the driver is determined by the voltage across its terminals not the power output of the amplifier. The current that flows through the voice coil and creates the electromagnetic force depends only on the voltage across the voice coil. Whether or not current is flowing through the "output impedance" of the amplifier is irrelevant to the driver. So if the voltage output from the amplifier changes, the acoustic output of the driver will always follow suit. So the question becomes how much is it changing? and what other non-linears are magnifying/minimizing the behavior? Non-linears are just very difficult to predict which is why engineers try to steer away from them....but that doesn't mean you can't achieve better performance through a symbiotic relationship.

Ok, enough rambling...I'll have to keep a look out for your measurements if you ever get around to them. Or maybe I'll just have to acquire my own pair to hear for myself []

[ClaudeJ1]

If so, then I have to question if the differences heard between going from a low-slope 'A'-ish crossover in the Khorn to a serious slope in a Jub.... might be partially due to the crossover. And that coming from or comparing a seriously steep slope khorn to a jub might be less intense. Not to mention more of an apples to apples comparison.

???

The crossover order relates to the slope:

1st order is -6dB/octave - used in the original type A

2nd order is -12dB/octave

3rd is -18

4rth is -24

5th is -30

6th is -36dB/octave - used in the AL-4 and the AK-4

With a three way speaker there are six places that may be influenced by the network:

I may be ducking as I write this, but I simply cannot let it pass. You know the old saying: "Different Slopes for Different Folks."..................

[Islander]

"Sweet Dean"???

I think he was missing a comma. Sort of like that guy in Russia early in the last century who was saved by a period. He applied for a pardon and the reply was "Pardon impossible to be sent to Siberia". His friend in high places was able to add a period, changing it to "Pardon. Impossible to be sent to Siberia".

[mikebse2a3]

I'm not sure how to imply it in my writing, so I'll just come out and mention that there's no reason to "worry about problems" unless your ears tell you something is amiss (whether or not the "problems" are legitimate or not)...just a little side point I wanted to make.

In this case I agree Mike. What I've been speaking of has more to do with "as Roy put it " a matter of flavor for me anyway.

As far as the voltage at the output of the amp...the acoustical power generated by the driver is determined by the voltage across its terminals not the power output of the amplifier. The current that flows through the voice coil and creates the electromagnetic force depends only on the voltage across the voice coil. Whether or not current is flowing through the "output impedance" of the amplifier is irrelevant to the driver.

The Power Output of the amplifier is determined by it's Voltage and Current capability so if the voltage or current varies for any reason the acoustical output of the driver will vary. As you know Mike solid state amps as a rule are more stable voltage sources as long as they can supply the current demand of the driver in part due to low output impedance of the amplifier. Basically they interact less with the varying impedance of the Driver.

So if the voltage output from the amplifier changes, the acoustic output of the driver will always follow suit.

If the Voltage increases for example as the Drivers Impedance increases the current that actually flows through the voice coil could decrease Mike so the Acoustical increase from the higher driver's terminals voltages might not happen if the current is reduced due again to the driver's impedance rise. This does make the acoustical response of the driver harder to predict in the real world when driven by amplifiers that have higher output impedances such as SET types but even some Solid State amps such as some designs by Nelson Pass of Pass Labs exhibit this also.

So the question becomes how much is it changing? and what other non-linears are magnifying/minimizing the behavior? Non-linears are just very difficult to predict which is why engineers try to steer away from them....but that doesn't mean you can't achieve better performance through a symbiotic relationship.

Totaly Agree as you often say it's all about the compromises!

Ok, enough rambling...I'll have to keep a look out for your measurements if you ever get around to them. Or maybe I'll just have to acquire my own pair to hear for myself

Man I never have enough time for this hobby Mike! As far as getting a pair of Jubilees seems like you can justify them for a research project![]

mike tn

[Coytee]

Man I never have enough time for this hobby Mike! As far as getting a pair of Jubilees seems like you can justify them for a research project![]

Doesn't he have some rich grandparents???

[^]

[DrWho]

If the Voltage increases for example as the Drivers Impedance increases the current that actually flows through the voice coil could decrease Mike so the Acoustical increase from the higher driver's terminals voltages might not happen if the current is reduced due again to the driver's impedance rise. This does make the acoustical response of the driver harder to predict in the real world when driven by amplifiers that have higher output impedances such as SET types but even some Solid State amps such as some designs by Nelson Pass of Pass Labs exhibit this also.

Yea, you're thinking about power - not the voltage like you should be [][] Just because the amp isn't working as hard doesn't mean the acoustical output doesn't goes up (in fact, efficiency of the amp is at a maximum when the output impedance matches the conjugate of the load impedance).

Man I never have enough time for this hobby Mike! As far as getting a pair of Jubilees seems like you can justify them for a research project![]

Purchase Jubilees for a research project?!? Wouldn't the point of research be to build something better? [][]

[Marvel]

Purchase Jubilees for a research project?!? Wouldn't the point of research be to build something better? [][]

Don't you need a reference to compare your designs to? [8-)]

[Deang]

Mike, yes, I'm still using the Super-T. A tight articulate bass with a beautifully clear top end. Tripath, Hypex, Gainclone, etc. have been accepted and embraced because they sound really good to some people -- and I'm one of those people. The Super-T taught me a lot about how much power big horns really need, and showed me that in my room, 10 watts gets it done. I know it's hard to believe, because I didn't believe it either until I put it in the system. You're more than welcome to head up here anytime and take the chair. I'll drop the top down 3dB and let her rip.