Room too small for K-Horns?

[texas42]

I've always lusted after these but never had a room with two solid corners for them. I have a line on a couple of pair now though that I am considering. This would be for a dedicated two channel room where space is at a premium. My room size is 10' by 10' with a vaulted ceiling (8' at one end, 13' at the other). I listen at low to moderate levels but am trying to delude myself that this would work. Anyone with any experience with K-Horns in a small room?

[DoubleJ]

Texas42:

Here is a link to a thread I started awhile back:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/85510/860793.aspx#860793

Hopefully you can get some useful information from it.

Thanks

JJ

[Guest " "]

I've always lusted after these but never had a room with two solid corners for them. I have a line on a couple of pair now though that I am considering. This would be for a dedicated two channel room where space is at a premium. My room size is 10' by 10' with a vaulted ceiling (8' at one end, 13' at the other). I listen at low to moderate levels but am trying to delude myself that this would work. Anyone with any experience with K-Horns in a small room?

Sounds like my home office. I had khorns, lascala's, heresy's, cornwalls in there. In ranking order...cornwalls...cornwalls...cornwalls...and cornwalls.

[JBryan]

While its true that Khorns work best in larger rooms so the horns have a chance to mesh, I've heard a couple of Khorn-based systems in small rooms that work quite well. Granted, you'll be listening in near-field (think headphones) but that can sound great if properly implemented and you won't have the image/soundstage problems some folks have to deal with. You may have to angle the tops a bit so they'll integrate better with the bass bins and you'll definitely want to invest in some quality upstream components as you will hear every nuance and any noise will be right in your face. To that end, you will be able to try almost any amp and preamp out there - no matter the wattage and you'll still get plenty of volume in that room - just watch that signal-to-noise ratio. It can be done and the results can be very satisfying if you're willing to work at it. If you want a quick and easy solution, go with S'fritz's Cornwall suggestion or look around for a nice 2-way like the CF-3 and such. Better yet, a small room is an excellent opportunity to try a full-range speaker like Tannoy, Cain & Cain or Fostex. Have fun.

[texas42]

DoubleJ, thanks for the link....Looks like the shortest distance from those that participated was 11' from corner to corner and the shortest listening position was 7'. In my room they would be 10' apart and about 6.5' from the speakers (in the sweetspot). That would qualify me for the having the 'new record'..... Not sure if it would work or not, however. I'm interested in the clarity they would provide. Not too concerned about the volume. Associated components would be a McIntosh MC-7300 and a JM Peach tube preamp.

[texas42]

While its true that Khorns work best in larger rooms so the horns have a chance to mesh, I've heard a couple of Khorn-based systems in small rooms that work quite well. Granted, you'll be listening in near-field (think headphones) but that can sound great if properly implemented and you won't have the image/soundstage problems some folks have to deal with. You may have to angle the tops a bit so they'll integrate better with the bass bins and you'll definitely want to invest in some quality upstream components as you will hear every nuance and any noise will be right in your face. To that end, you will be able to try almost any amp and preamp out there - no matter the wattage and you'll still get plenty of volume in that room - just watch that signal-to-noise ratio. It can be done and the results can be very satisfying if you're willing to work at it. If you want a quick and easy solution, go with S'fritz's Cornwall suggestion or look around for a nice 2-way like the CF-3 and such. Better yet, a small room is an excellent opportunity to try a full-range speaker like Tannoy, Cain & Cain or Fostex. Have fun.

I think my components are up to the task and I have considered the 'single driver' approach. (Came close to buying a Hornshoppe Horn over the weekend, but wasn't quick enough with the trigger). I also have a great shot at a local pair of Forte's and even some Cornwalls.

[seti]

At the last Hope pilgrimage we listened to Klipschorns in a room the size of a large walk in closet. Everyone was suprised how good they sounded in there despite the room size. Sure it wasn't perfect but they still sounded good.

[garyrc]

I once had Khorns in a room approx. 12 feet by 9 feet, with a ceiling like yours -- in my case, the ceiling went from 8 feet high to 14 feet high. The K horns sounded great from the sweet spot (behind my desk), and O.K., but a bit strange, from positions one or two persons to the side -- naturally there was attenuation of the highest treble overtones from the speaker a side listener was the most off-axis to -- but with many recordings, there was enough signal mutuality so that the other speaker filled in the overtones over most (not quite all) of the sterreo field. The truly odd thing was that they sounded pretty good from down the hall, and from many places in the rest of the house.

One problem you might have is the equality of your 10 foot by 10 foot dimentions. The same frequency would be reinforced by both of those (identical) dimentions. Maybe someone in the forum would know if putting some kind of Helmholtz thingy in there would be enough to reduce this effect (if necessary).

In my case, the Khorns sounded better in that room than any of the several other, smaller, speakers I tried in there.

[wpines]

The dynamics of horns at low levels make them ideal for a small room. At louder levels, they should have a bigger room but with room treatments,you can compensate for a small room.

The room pictured is 14x13x9'7". The listening position creates an 11 foot equilateral triangle. For tube amplification I've had the 10 watt Sophia Baby and the 45 watt NOS Valves VRD45ST. For solid state I've had a Mac 5100, a Mac 2255 and a Mac 7270. In a small room, if you've got big amps, gain controls on the amps are a must or you'll get frustrated with the incremental volume control.

[LarryC]

The truly odd thing was that they sounded pretty good from down the hall, and from many places in the rest of the house.

One of Heyser's observations in his classic review in Audio.

[Deang]

10 x 10 is too small. You need to be at least 12' feet back off of a Klipschorn for the bass to sum properly.

[Mallette]

To heck with it, get'em. You may have another room someday, but this might be your best deal on 'horns. Rooms come and go, but K'horns LAST.

Dave

[DTLongo]

"To heck with it, get'em. You may have another room someday, but this might be your best deal on 'horns. Rooms come and go, but K'horns LAST. Dave "

Amen. Get 'em, have fun and work your Khornitis out of your system. Khorns do last forever, they are collectors' pieces, and someday you may have the opportunity to move to a place with good corners where you'll be able to really open them up. But trust me, been there done that - finding a house with good Khorn corners is a bit of a challenge. I lucked out with my present place in '06.

In your small room the bass probably WILL suffer though you still will benefit from tjhe Khorns' efficiency and clarity. They will take anything you throw at them, even the Telarc '"1812" cannon shots played very loud, and they will not break up or fall apart on demanding, high-volume stuff. To offset the bass deficiency in that small room, think of getting a high-quality subwoofer, Velodyne or such. Even a (good) ten-incher will fill in the low bass beautifully in that small room. Once you get everything all dialed in you will be in ecstasy.

[Mallette]

One other thing. See Rick Rigler's review of my system down in the External Phono Preamp thread. My 'horns are on a 12 foot wall, so we aren't talking much difference.

Dave

[JJkizak]

In reference to whoever said they sounded good in adjacent rooms, my living room has a walk through doorway from the kitchen and the overall sound is very good in the kitchen with the high end cut down some. Kind of surprising I thought. Volume set around 98 DBM.

JJK

[Groomlakearea51]

IMHO, they work very well in small rooms as well. The "wall of voodoo" room is 17' x 12' has a sloped ceiling from 7'8" above the "far" long wall with the Klipschorns to the other side long wall at 9'6". Sounds great, no problems. The door on right side of the "near" long wall and the "lazy susan - emergency beer dispenser window on the other side act as Helmholtz resonators, per se. Great sound while listening to NPR on the FM in the kitchen & dining room (and the living room) while I'm getting the kids up, fed and out the door to the school bus at 0:dark hundred hours!! Back in the "old days", when I first bought a pair of K'horns while in the military, I had a small apartment and the living room was only about 12' x 10', and they sounded great in that room, particularly at very, very low volumes. I've had them pretty much in small rooms and in larger 30 x 22 rooms, etc. Some tweaking with the amp, but no "issues". The voodoo room is "treated" and everything in it (bookshelves, etc) were designed to act as absorbers or deflectors to make sure that I did not get bad acoustical issues at moderate volumes. I also have Cornwalls and 2 pairs of Forte's in the room (and Heresy's if I'm testing a pair that I rebuilt), also along the "long" wall. Each pair has a unique sound in the room, all good though.

[PrestonTom]

In reference to whoever said they sounded good in adjacent rooms, my living room has a walk through doorway from the kitchen and the overall sound is very good in the kitchen with the high end cut down some. Kind of surprising I thought. Volume set around 98 DBM.

JJK

What the quote was in reference to (from the Heyser review) was a different phenomena. It has since been given the name: LIAR which is an acronym for Live In Another Room.

The phenomenon is NOT that the reproduction sounds good in an adjacent room, since there are to many acoustic problems for that to happen. Rather the phenomena is that the reproduction has a realism is if there really is live music, but as it would be heard in another (adjacent) room.

Remember that the high frequencies will now be severely attenuated since those small wavelengths will not diffract around various object and will be easily absorbed by various surfaces as the sound makes its way down the hallway etc (so the music is effectively low-pass filtered). Also, of course, there will be no spatial imaging since the spatial cues (left vs right channel differences) will be lost (so it is effectively monaural). Also the direct and indirect (reflected) sound will be wound up together (not a technical term). So you will be at the mercy of all sorts of comb filter, lobing etc. So by itself it will not realistically sound like live music as would hear it in the same room.

However some systems, definitely the Klipschorns, do have this ability to sound like live music as it would propagate from another room. It is an interesting effect and not all speakers can mimic this. I suspect it has something to do with the loaded horns ability to have both a deep and clean bass response along with the K-Horns ability to accurately reproduce transients and dynamics. But I am only guessing.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[IndyKlipschFan]

I would get them too. They will hide in the corners pretty good and you can of course put things on top of them too.

Is it a perfect situation? NO... Is it ever with K horns?? hahahahahaha

As long as your not gonna rock yourself out to no end loudness wise, I think you will enjoy them. If you get them as a great deal, worst case scenario is you can re sell them at or better to what your paying for them now.

You will love them... Later on in life, maybe a bigger room, you can STILL enjoy them too if this is not your dream home/ room situation now?

Roger

[cjgeraci]

I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion, a ten by ten room is too small for Khorns.

I would pass on them until I had a larger room to put them in.

Carl.

[texas42]

Well, it may be a moot point as the seller is vacillating on his offer to sell. It would have been a good deal (at $2000 for the pair) if it works out. If not, I have a line on a pair of Cornwalls (for $800) or Forte II's (for $450). Maybe, considering the size of my room the Forte's would be the best fit (size/sound) and certainly the least expensive....