Palladium Demo Room at Klipsch

[Professor Thump]

Klipsch is having growing pains, as everyone could imagine. We have decided that we have not been doing Palladium speakers justice in some of our demonstrations to dealers and important clients. So Professor Thump is on a mission to make the ultimate Palladium demo room. We think we are going to use the A/V room (demo room that is farthest west of the 5 rooms), but we have to make sure it will sound good with the 39’s. We have a new Sony 1080P projector now in that room with a nice big screen but I am not sure whether we will do multichannel demo’s in this room since 2 channel is the priority for demos.

Trey and Jay have been very helpful in moving cables and stuff around as Kerry and I have been listening to the interaction of the room and the speakers. After much review we had found a perfect spot for the P39’s in the work room that you saw during our last Pilgrimage. There were track played in that room where the imaging and bass made the hair stand on end when the chill went up your spine. But we can dedicate that room permanently to Palladium 39’s because it is used for most of our voicing during crossover development. So we would like the A/V room to work. Of course we will need to change the name of the room if this plan is set in place.

Trey was good enough to model the location of the speakers from the walls with a tape measure similar to the work room. Of course P Thump wasn’t aware of this and proceeded to move them to a different position. Which lead to a “WTF?” from Arvis. J Now you have to realize that P-39’s weigh 165 pounds. So moving the towers, even an inch, with spikes on the bottom of the cabinet, are a bit of an effort. There are no handles and the shape is curvilinear and difficult to grip being so smooth. That being said we had to muscle these babies around or use a hand cart to flip them into their next listening position. Well a half day later and about 10 moves to the speakers we ended up with them close to the back wall for optimum performance. This was a surprise to me but with this being a smaller room, I am sure the math would stand true.

I had been loading additional bass traps and diffusers into this room, which was helping to optimize not only the imaging but the bass punchiness. The dispersion of this system is so consistent that you barely need to toe them in at all to get a good center image and with proper diffusion on the critical areas of the wall the image literally surrounds you using only two speakers. I also found the sweet spot to be quite wide, so three people on a couch could enjoy them.

So now that I am more convinced that this room will work, I need to wrap my mind around other issues. Can we demo DTS True HD audio in this config with a 7.1 system without degrading the 2 channel aura? We are in a position as to where we can buy some premium gear to go with the speakers so now I need to shop for some new toys, but what? McIntosh came to mind. It sounds good with the Palladiums but their MX-136 won’t decode Blue Ray True HD audio. Ouch! That could be a problem. McIntosh tells me that they will have an MX-150 in July that will decode the latest 7.1 channel DTS standard but I can’t wait that long. So maybe I will concentrate on 2 channel and add the multichannel equipment when we can do Blue Ray to its fullest. A simple rack would be in the front of the room with garden hose cables to steer the electrons in the same direction to the speakers and squash any cable geeks concerns.

Here are the considerations for gear:

C-500 Tube Preamp (2 channel)
MC402 Amp (2 x 400 W)

Clean and simple…


Phase two maybe the MX-150 into the C-500 in a different rack in the rear. This stuff is all XLR balanced so you can run long cables with no noise due to the CMMR of the differential preamps.

What do you think?

[Arky]

I think you like your job. Sorry, can't help with the technical aspects.

[bhendrix]

Great write-up, Mark!! Thank you for sharing it.

What will the new room be called? Palladium Hall, Palladium Gallery, Studio 39 ???

When can you come to Wichita to help me with my room. OOO, OOO, perhaps on your way to Henderson . . . . . .[]

[falcon20x]

So now that I am more convinced that this room will work, I need to wrap my mind around other issues. Can we demo DTS True HD audio in this config with a 7.1 system without degrading the 2 channel aura? We are in a position as to where we can buy some premium gear to go with the speakers so now I need to shop for some new toys, but what? McIntosh came to mind. It sounds good with the Palladiums but their MX-136 won’t decode Blue Ray True HD audio. Ouch! That could be a problem.

Not to hijack the thread but I was just about to pull the trigger on the MX 136

I assumed it would do fine with with the new audio formats, that explains why you can find so many of them on the used market for so cheap.

I think I will just wait, Thanks

[J.4knee]

P Thump,

I know you are looking for a Mac unit for the Pre/pro duties but this unit is no slouch. I am not sure where you can demo it before you think about acquiring one though. If you can find and give it a listen and if don't like you guys will only be out time

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3922.asp

[seti]

I would like to hear the Palladiums with a rack of McIntosh.

It is very frusterating now trying to find a good demo room to listen to speakers. I've been to a couple audio stores in the last couple years and it is difficult to find a good demo room. Since the rise of HT it is even more difficult to find a good dedicated stereo room. It would be cool if a company like Klipsch had the equivalent of an apple store dedicated to listening to a wider range of speakers. When I say apple store I mean before they had seperate buildings but had dedicated floor space in other stores or a store within a store. It would be too cool if people could walk into a store and here some heritage or Palladiums or even the headphone line. I know so many people who have bought speakers without so much as an audition only to be disappointed later. That will never happpen but it sounds interesting anyway.

[Daddy Dee]

Professor T.

Very cool to have a room dedicated to P39 demos.

Arvis J is pretty good help, no?

Just don't move the speakers after he has placed them!

Of course, his crankiness is in the spirit of Mr. Paul! When things are as good as they get, don't mess with it!

[The Dude]

I would like to hear the Palladiums with a rack of McIntosh.

It is very frusterating now trying to find a good demo room to listen to speakers. I've been to a couple audio stores in the last couple years and it is difficult to find a good demo room. Since the rise of HT it is even more difficult to find a good dedicated stereo room. It would be cool if a company like Klipsch had the equivalent of an apple store dedicated to listening to a wider range of speakers. When I say apple store I mean before they had seperate buildings but had dedicated floor space in other stores or a store within a store. It would be too cool if people could walk into a store and here some heritage or Palladiums or even the headphone line. I know so many people who have bought speakers without so much as an audition only to be disappointed later. That will never happpen but it sounds interesting anyway.

I couldn't agree more with this, I like the idea of a Klipsch store. I bet there are lots of people out there that would be willing to do this I know one of my home stores here in Omaha, has Klipsch as one of there biggest sellers. One of my biggest problems is the fact that I have to travel to about 2-3 different stores just to check out more than one line of Klipsch products, not to mention not even be able to hear all of them such as Palladium, Heritage, etc... Now from what I understand these are all made to order so I could see why not every store carrys them but its hard to find any that do.

[LarryC]

Great idea!! I think a Palladium listening room is most worthy of one of the world's great audio companies.

I'm glad something similar is being put together, because I always liked that little auditorium/listening room at Hope (no, not the one near Roy's office with cast-off furniture -- it's nearer one of the early buildings). How many people will it hold?

The 5.1 Palladium P-37/Aragon setup I was granted for my classical music "classes" was wonderful for bringing out accurate instrumental and vocalist sound qualities and dynamics. I frankly underestimated the Palladium while I was there, and only later realized how much better Palladiums were than other such setups I've heard since.

BTW, what DVD player was used at my classes?

I suggest a few classical DVDs for demo purposes, since some listeners will (or should!) ask for classical examples. I'd suggest some picks from my playlist:

J.S. Bach, Partita No. 3 for Solo Violin. Gidon Kremer, "Bach to Bach." EuroArts 2055638

• Like the similar Bach six sonatas for solo cello, the writing is CONTRAPUNTAL, in which the music is made up entirely of independent melodic lines rather than the usual main melody set to harmony. One can hear more than one "voice" (high, middle, low) being played or inferred simultaneously. Although the camera does him no favors, this close-up of his flawless performance fully displays the piece’s extreme difficulty and his mastery of playing it. Note that Bach wrote EVERY note he plays, and that he plays EVERY note Bach wrote in this.

W.A. Mozart, Symphony No. 41, Finale (molto allegro). Kammerorchester CPE Bach, Haenchen cond. EuroArts 2056018

• Mozart wrote this, his last symphony, 3 years before his death. The last movement is a tour de force that combines five themes into a fugal coda. This CHAMBER ORCHESTRA plays standing up, except for the cellos, and really lays into it. The precision playing by these superb musicians is amazing. Excellent conductor. Recorded in Berlin, 2005.

Antonin Dvorak, Symphony No. 9 "From the New World," first movement (Adagio - Allegro molto). Berlin Philharmonic, Abbado cond. EuroArts 20560482

• Dvorak, son of a provincial butcher in what is now the Czech Republic, became a famous composer in Europe, which led to his being made Director of a new National Conservatory of Music in New York City in 1892, where he was introduced to the African-American spiritual. Dvorak wrote this symphony in 1893 using pentatonic-scale melodies that in his mind reflected Native American and African-American music. The first movement is a powerful, exciting opening to the symphony. The Largo second movement is a very famous symphony movement. The DVD was recorded in Palermo, Italy, in 2002. The Berlin Philhamonic is one of the best orchestras in the world, and this is an outstanding taping and recording IMO. One can see as well as hear precision playing and unified dynamic (loud-soft) shadings by its superb musicians. Abbado is an expressive conductor with a great connection to the orchestra.

Claudio Monteverdi, Vespers of the Blessed Virgin, Ave Maris Stella. John Eliot Gardiner, cond., et al. Archiv 073 035-9 [available only from Crotchet in the UK]

• Monteverdi may have been the greatest composer of the early Baroque (early 1600s). He led the early transformation of music from the emotionally reserved Renaissance to the introduction of intensely emotional opera and the Italian madrigal. The Vespers, written in 1610, is one of the greatest musical works before 1700. It combines psalms, earthy biblical songs, and Catholic vesper liturgy into a somewhat baffling but powerful whole. Although the writing of separate parts for instruments and voices was only a recent development, the somewhat reconstructed orchestration shows remarkable skill. This was recorded in 1989 in the unique San Marco basilica in Venice, a world treasure over 1,100 years old with many lofts and domes, massively lined with precious gems and mosaic gold. Venice became a center of musical composition in part because of Monteverdi, and led as well in music printing and publishing. The vocal writing is beautiful and unsurpassingly sumptuous and rich. Ave Maris Stella (Hail, star of the sea) has an 8-part chorus (two 4-voice choirs) singing several stanzas (verses) with 4 instrumental "ritornellos" (returning passages) between them. Each ritornello is by a different set of instruments, i.e., brass, strings, winds (2 oboes and a bassoon), and a recorder quartet.

Also, consider a DVD or two from the Keeping Score series of the San Francisco Symphony, http://www.shopsfsymphony.org/shop/home.php?cat=42. I suggest the Tchaikovsky 4th or maybe the Beethoven Eroica.

Larry

[RockOn4Klipsch]

Here's a wild thought, I know the Mc's sound real good but as a show of product confidenc, support and reliability why not use something from the older Aragon line. It could be a potential re-invigoration of the Klipsch - Aragon merger. May spur some talk amongst those looking at the High-End Palladiums. If they sounded good together in the demo room how cool would that be.....

Probably not but it would be nice to see Aragon make a come back in the future.

[jamesV]

Here's a wild thought, I know the Mc's sound real good but as a show of product confidenc, support and reliability why not use something from the older Aragon line.

I agree and was going to mention it also. Then thinking I guess the hardest part would be to find the pieces. At least with the McIntosh gear they are readily available. Plus the two names together would be great.

James

[sean5340]

Here are the considerations for gear:

C-500 Tube Preamp (2 channel)
MC402 Amp (2 x 400 W)

Clean and simple…


Phase two maybe the MX-150 into the C-500 in a different rack in the rear. This stuff is all XLR balanced so you can run long cables with no noise due to the CMMR of the differential preamps.

What do you think?

You Have my permission![]

[DrWho]

For what it's worth, and I'm probably in the minority here, I always
find the McIntosh gear to be a bit dark sounding...which kinda flies in
the face of the typical forward sound of Klipsch. I guess that's my own
preference for bright liquid smooth dynamic sound coming out.

Nevertheless, I think Klipsch should demo with both tube amps
and solid state amps, and with multiple sources too....at least a vinyl
and CD rig, but you might throw in a more esoteric digital solution if
you can find good source material. The super high-end is all about
pre-concieved notions about what sounds good and I really think a room
dedicated to showing off the Pals should demonstrate that all
pre-conceived notions sound awesome. I think the biggest selling point
of the P-39f is that it really have very little of its own
sound....it's the only speaker I've heard that is so inert.

Btw,
I really the sound of that Cayin tube integrated thing that you guys
have floating around....well I don't like tubes, but if I was going
tubes the Cayin would be on my short list. I dunno how they jive with
the Pals, but you've already got it so it's just a matter of hooking it
up to find out.

As far as an HT demo type experience....you could always use a
2-channel solution that has multiple source selectors and then it's a
piece of cake for the 2-channel system to be run in parallel with the
HT. Basically, just feed the LR preouts of the HT into the 2-channel
rig.

I personally would love to see Klipsch be a technology
leader and demo an active xover system done way overkill with something
like the deqx line of products:

http://www.deqx.com/products.php

I must confess that I'm mostly interested to see how this kind of
approach pans out against some of the other more traditional approaches [A] That, and I'm a tech geek. []

[TheEvan]

Wow, the deqx solution looks amazing. I'm imagining this on Khorns or Jubes.

[Professor Thump]

Btw,
I really the sound of that Cayin tube integrated thing that you guys
have floating around....well I don't like tubes, but if I was going
tubes the Cayin would be on my short list. I dunno how they jive with
the Pals, but you've already got it so it's just a matter of hooking it
up to find out.

As far as an HT demo type experience....you could always use a
2-channel solution that has multiple source selectors and then it's a
piece of cake for the 2-channel system to be run in parallel with the
HT. Basically, just feed the LR preouts of the HT into the 2-channel
rig.

Thanks Dr for your excellant comments as usual...

As far as the Cayin amp goes, it is a pretty piece that sound great in the mid-hi range but it is about 17 dB down at 20 Hz from measurments. I think that the engineer had a 60 Hz hum issue when he designed it and fixed it with a HP single order filter. The rolloff is 6 dB / Oct. So if we used this in conjuction with a sub with a 60 Hz Xover point it would probably sound good. Obviously this is not the intent since the P39 do exceptionally well with natural uncolored tone in the lower frequencies at moderate power. This biamp approach would also defete the simple elegance that some people would expect. So we need to audition the 39 without the sub when needed.

Your second point about the feedthrough from multichannel to 2 channel is something we will consider. This allows us to have a clean 2 channel source in the front rack but still recieve signal for L/R in Movie mode.

As far as an HT demo type experience....you could always use a
2-channel solution that has multiple source selectors and then it's a
piece of cake for the 2-channel system to be run in parallel with the
HT. Basically, just feed the LR preouts of the HT into the 2-channel
rig.

I personally would love to see Klipsch be a technology
leader and demo an active xover system done way overkill with something
like the deqx line of products:

http://www.deqx.com/products.php

I must confess that I'm mostly interested to see how this kind of
approach pans out against some of the other more traditional approaches That, and I'm a tech geek.

I am a firm believer in active EQ for full control of the transducers with optimum phase summation. Currently this system crossover is fully passive. I don't think that design intent will change in the near future, but it would be a noble goal if this plays into the Klipsch strategy in the future.

[Professor Thump]

Larry,

Thanks for the recommendations.

[sheltie dave]

I would recommend three equally beneficial equipment options. It appears that you have very good luck with Audio Classics being a prime retailer for you, so the McIntosh gear would be a symbiotic win/win relationship, and a good marketing peer positioning as well.

A second consideration would be a good mid line integrated of HT setup, where the Palladiums would be the dedicated fronts. Is Aragon still cooking?

The third would be my personal favorite, and a combo botique lineup that has proved to be stellar in many of our homes. Get a pair of fluffed up VRDs and a Juicy Music Peach or Blueberry Extreme.

I always have felt most comfortable in audio salons where they had a stew of options to listen to...it really drives the point home that our speaks sound good with all kinds of good equipment. These would give you the client referenced marketing setup, your in-house gear, and a tip of the hat to your fan base that ardently promotes your products.

[mike stehr]

We are in a position as to where we can buy some premium gear to go with the speakers so now I need to shop for some new toys, but what?

What amplifier/amplifiers are you evaluating the speakers with currently?

[dtel]

The only problem with a Peach or Blueberry is they are no longer made, not good if some one wanted the same setup.

I am glad there is going to be a room setup for the Palladium's, that would be nice for all of the better lines, let BB and others handle the entry level models. Everyone knows how hard, if even possible it is to find someplace to listen that to set up even decent.

[DrWho]

As far as the Cayin amp goes, it is a pretty piece that sound great in the mid-hi range but it is about 17 dB down at 20 Hz from measurments. I think that the engineer had a 60 Hz hum issue when he designed it and fixed it with a HP single order filter........

Laaaaame.

I'd be surprised if 6dB/octave was enough to get rid of a hum problem, but then I don't play with tube circuits too often and don't know how they're sensitive. I wonder if maybe he was trying to cut down on core saturation on the output transformers?

Don't mean to go too off topic....guess I'm just surprised and glad to hear the facts. Cross that off my list of recommendations []