Jump to content
The Klipsch Audio Community
Sign in to follow this  
Youthman

DeanG RF-7ii (From Start to Finish)

Recommended Posts

There's nothing unhealthy going on here.

What needs to be understood and accepted is that the most brilliant minds in the field disagree constantly over a whole range of issues. At some point you just have to just start making decisions about where you stand on certain things - and stick to it (unless some evidence presents itself that's sufficient to sway you).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it also makes the most sincere effort feel incredibly dumb. as i've shared across forums, it has become apparent that charge coupling your crossovers is stupid and so are the people who do it. :rolleyes:

Yes, I was told the same today. I was told it was "stupid bullshit".

Yikes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all I can say is....poor Youthman's thread. It didn't deserve all of this.

I've seen worse. No one's slinging arrows of righteous indignation yet. A couple darts......maybe.

Yeah, I'm totally ok with the direction of this thread. As long as it doesn't get ugly and we start slinging "Yo Mamma" jokes. :lol:

Honestly, there are bound to be skeptics. I honestly think I'm a good test subject to have the chance to hear the first DeanG RF-7ii because I have absolutely no previous experience with DeanG Crossovers, in no way am I being paid to endorse Dean and his work and I've never considered myself as an audiophile. I'm an average listener who loves music and loves the sound of Klipsch. I'm thinking if my ears hear a significant improvement in the sound, that's really saying something. I just hope I can express with words what my ears are hearing. Several times I have A/B two speakers and I hear subtle differences but cannot articulate what exactly I'm hearing (wider soundstage, dynamics, better midrange etc).

The great benefit of this thread is I will share my honest thoughts on how it sounds. If I get them and they sound worse, I will tell you. If my ears really do not hear a difference, I won't be afraid to state that. If it's a significant improvement and simply sounds amazing, I will gladly provide a glowing review.

Regardless, I'm anxious to hear what they sound like with the new crossovers. Anyone else getting excited? :D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Long thread, interesting. I may have been one of Dean's earlier RF7 customers but I'm not positive.

Even after waiting for my speakers to be back up and running and without changing a thing in the system, a huge difference could be heard.

And I do mean a huge / better sound at that.

Sorry for not being able to describe it better for you.

Pat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just threw my tv off a cliff. This is by far the most entertaining show yet. What a cast of characters. Youth props on the great photos and time taken to share your experience with us. Dean thanks for taking all the abuse and still sticking around. I can't wait to see how this show ends. Seriously, really excited for you and your upgrades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all I can say is....poor Youthman's thread. It didn't deserve all of this.

I've seen worse. No one's slinging arrows of righteous indignation yet. A couple darts......maybe.

Yeah, I'm totally ok with the direction of this thread. As long as it doesn't get ugly and we start slinging "Yo Mamma" jokes. :lol:

Honestly, there are bound to be skeptics. I honestly think I'm a good test subject to have the chance to hear the first DeanG RF-7ii because I have absolutely no previous experience with DeanG Crossovers, in no way am I being paid to endorse Dean and his work and I've never considered myself as an audiophile. I'm an average listener who loves music and loves the sound of Klipsch. I'm thinking if my ears hear a significant improvement in the sound, that's really saying something. I just hope I can express with words what my ears are hearing. Several times I have A/B two speakers and I hear subtle differences but cannot articulate what exactly I'm hearing (wider soundstage, dynamics, better midrange etc).

The great benefit of this thread is I will share my honest thoughts on how it sounds. If I get them and they sound worse, I will tell you. If my ears really do not hear a difference, I won't be afraid to state that. If it's a significant improvement and simply sounds amazing, I will gladly provide a glowing review.

Regardless, I'm anxious to hear what they sound like with the new crossovers. Anyone else getting excited? :D

When you get them back, keep in mind the spatial qualities that now appear around each instrument in the recording you are listening to. I failed to articulate this when I initially wrote my review of the CW ox's Dean built for me... but what really is very apparent besides the vaslty increased resolution and reduction in granularity was this element of separation between individual elements in the music. Each instrument seems to be surrounded by negative space and its this negative space that helps make the recording more demensional.

Of course my xo's are MUCH OLDER than yours... but in my case the results were like listening to an entirely new speaker system.

Edited by Schu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's why Youthman isn't going to have to pay for his upgrade - his willingness to do this for me is beyond awesome.

I think this is a very generous gesture from Dean. We both will benefit from this in that I agreed to provide high res images showing all of the steps of Removal and Installing. Of course I will provide my typical Youthman review once the DeanG Crossovers have been installed.

Hey Dean--At least you have Youthman around doing your advertising. :)

Not sure about "advertising" per say since this is my first experience with DeanG anything. I'm more of a journalist sharing my journey with the rest of the Klipsch Community. :D

all I can say is....poor Youthman's thread. It didn't deserve all of this.

I've seen worse. No one's slinging arrows of righteous indignation yet. A couple darts......maybe.

I have absolutely no previous experience with DeanG Crossovers, in no way am I being paid to endorse Dean and his work

The great benefit of this thread is I will share my honest thoughts on how it sounds. If I get them and they sound worse, I will tell you. If my ears really do not hear a difference, I won't be afraid to state that. If it's a significant improvement and simply sounds amazing, I will gladly provide a glowing review.

I'm enjoying the thread and do believe it is helpful for those that may be thinking about tackling a similar project, but please keep in mind you will still have skeptics, just like the magazines that sell advertising to a vendor and a positive review appears, since an earlier portion of the thread could imply to some that you and Dean may have been in a barter situation. Positives and negatives in the comparison should help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A lot of us are here to gain knowledge and are interested in doing things ourselves.

Then you need to look elsewhere for help. Dean is running a business, not a mentoring service. That being said, Dean still shares knowledge on these pages. I have no issue with his post. Obviously YMMV.

I believe I said I don't have the time to deal with what comes with the territory. I never called anyone an "idiot", I was just inferring that there are many who think they can do this, but end up finding they can't. I guess you're upset because my primary purpose here isn't to provide personal services to you. I'm pretty much the only vendor left fielding questions here, most everyone else has left or quit posting. One need look no further than a post like yours for the reason why.

I can read and I am not an IDIOT. I accept full responsibility for any and all damage to my own speakers/crossovers. I will not go into business modifying other peoples crossovers.

Like I told the other "not idiot" -- get busy!

Right, I refuse to do a step by step instruction process for this because I'm afraid you or someone else might start a crossover business. Hey, I have an idea, why don't you write the instructions and field all the phone calls and emails.

The problem here is that neither one of you paid very close attention to what I wrote. I have a wife, children, a day job, and work piling up on my bench. I barely have time to field my normal email traffic. I have no idea what either of you are offended over. It's my time, and I think I should be allowed to spend it as I want. I don't owe either of you anything. It's me who should be offended.

Edit: I'm not really offended as much as I am upset over the fact that you aren't willing to see this from my perspective.

There is another issue I forgot to mention. I have a verbal non - disclosure agreement with Klipsch. It's not the kind that involved lawyers, but a handshake. Klipsch doesn't release much in the way of engineering data on current production loudspeakers, and I was asked to sit on anything I run across or given. There were things I knew about the RF-7 that I didn't talk about until after they were discontinued.

I believe that when it come to human nature, there is a little more going on here. Just like the Dad that would punish the kids in case we thought about doing the bad thing the neighbor kid did, just like the teacher that punishes the class for the egregious act of one, just like the office memo goes out cutting out privledges for all in the office because of one individual rather than confront the guilty party specifically in each situation, there is a fine line when someone new reads the somewhat random “rants,” then not sure what it means, who or what it applies to, and no frame of reference to level-set, can interpret the meaning to be that Dean is just here to sell his product on the Klipsch forum, and if we are not buying something from him, the rest of us be damned like we don't belong on the Klipsch forum asking questions. Not necessarily my view, but it seems to be stirring people that may not be the people that Dean references in the list of rants.

... I miss the days you're talking about too, but look at all the people who have left, especially those with technical backgrounds. It's surprising how few people I feel like I know around here these days.

Hey Dean--At least you have Youthman around doing your advertising. :) Fwiw, I am glad to see you're still posting and now we'll have a new generation of folks proud to have "DeanG'd" RF-7IIs! :wub:

This got me thinking about "Dean and his forum crossover academy"

I realize that there is a fine line between catering to everyone that comes along and wants a hand-out and just wants something done for them for nothing; from the person that is here participating in the exchange in ideas (has taken the time to educate themselves through other means – I do know a few on the forum that take this step) and just needs a value or range of values of a resistor used, why was the capacitor value changed, understanding the pitfalls from just using a cross-over calculator, understanding the crossover impact on the phase of a driver, time-alignment of drivers, flexibility of the autoformer, why changing one value or spec of a part of a cross-over is detrimental, etc.

I believe that most of us encounter similar situations in our daily jobs and daily life challenges. I know that I do. Of course, some would argue that these posts are my ‘going home and kicking the dog’ instead of taking it out on my potential clients.

However, in some respects it seems to me that Dean may not necessarily realize that he is no longer “young Luke” on the forum just learning from the likes of Jedi masters, such as ALK, djk, among others; but has now aged, gained experience, and has become “Yoda” for many of us “newer, less experienced” Klipsch fanatics on the forum.

Whether Dean likes it or not, in many respects, the old mentors have “passed the torch” and Dean has taken on a role of mentor to many of us as long as he, himself, continues to post anything. Despite being the “expert” in our eyes, these misunderstood ‘rants’ will essentially pull the focus back on himself rather than the focus being on how much he has helped keep Klispch and the forum alive as we all become more attuned to our beloved Klipsch speakers.

In addition, with Klipsch allowing Dean to capture a niche market here on their forum, to me it seems that he has become somewhat of an ambassador for Klipsch with an important, but secondary role, as trusted advisor and guide.

The contributions that Dean has had on the forum seem to have been viewed by many as out-of-the-ordinary and memorable. I find myself in this category most of the time.

Therefore, Dean, like it or not, you are in the spot light, will continue to be in the spot light, and many consider you the most knowledgeable person in this area on the forum. When you post, you might be the most knowledgeable person in the room, but will you wield that knowledge with wisdom and humility?

I don’t think you do it consciously, but please pause and think if your posts (i.e. rants) can be viewed, by some, as an opportunity to prove how brilliant you are, instead of leaving the forum audience saying, “Wow, Dean just gave us a real gift by spending his time in these threads. Dean gave us the insights and tools to help us succeed.”

There are still, or new, 'technical people' posting in a variety of forum threads every day, just not necessarily the same 'technical people' that you 'cut your teeth' on, or necessarily 'technical people' with the same expertise as you, like the old timers that you looked up to and respected when you were gaining your knowledge and experience. We all tend to just stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.

You can do this crossover thing and create a positive legacy without catering to the leeches, and without the, in general, whining about the leeches (you know that we all want names instead of these generalities :D) and people will receive your message and be transformed by it. Just please don't end up being your own worst enemy.

Well, I know of at least one happy dog......just kidding, no animals or dogs were harmed before, during or after writing this post.

Edit: In realizing that we all need to vent, to find stress relief, etc. therefore, I suspect that Thaddeus Smith wouldn't mind if you explode with a rant from time-to-time in the dedicated thread for those who suddenly get the urge to just squat and crap. Might cut down on the confusion for some. :emotion-14:

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/148425-thread-crapping-honey-pot/page-12#entry1703460

post-36163-0-68520000-1394849848_thumb.j

post-36163-0-62320000-1394851125_thumb.j

Edited by Fjd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is interesting. I'm a total newb on here. I did luck into a set of spectacular Klipsch speakers about 2 years ago, a pair of P38s. I am a contractor and did a job for a guy here in Indy, he turned out to be a Klipsch acoustic/electrical engineer. I did him a favor on his home, he did me a bigger favor on the speakers. They were a test set, but he did rework the crossovers before he delivered them. He told me what he did, but the info flew right over my head. Now I'm kind of curious what hi did exactly. I did not listen to them before he worked on them, so I have no idea how different they sound.

They're hooked up to an 7x95 watt Yamaha avr, it sounds very good, but I know these speakers are begging for more power. I'm not sure which way to go on an amp….2, 3, 5 channel, monoblocks? I hope to get a center channel speaker next, then upgrade my sub, then better surrounds. I hope I don't bore you guys with any basic questions, Youthman, great work and sorry to hijack your thread….Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anyone else getting excited?

I am, I got my B2's back from Dean today!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow Shu, your description sounds like you've been watching Star Trek for awhile. :P Honestly, I wish I could be as descriptive with my reviews as you are. I don't know how to articulate sometimes what I'm hearing. I use simple terms like brighter, smoothe, better separation etc. Maybe over time I can train my ears to be able to communicate better to my brain what I'm hearing?

please keep in mind you will still have skeptics,

There will always be skeptics. Honestly, I'm one of them. Before Dean made his offer to upgrade my crossovers, I probably would have never sent a pair to him to upgrade unless I heard the difference firsthand from someone that had a pair of speakers with DeanG speakers.

just like the magazines that sell advertising to a vendor and a positive review appears, since an earlier portion of the thread could imply to some that you and Dean may have been in a barter situation.

Hopefully, throughout my 10,826 posts, I have proven to be a man of integrity, character and truth. The only "barter" was that was made was Dean would do my crossovers and in return, I would provide a thorough step by step process including photos of the removal and re-installation process and to share my thoughts after receiving the crossovers. Dean wasn't sure how easy it would be to remove the RF-7ii crossovers. At first, I had him on FaceTime and he watched as I attempted to remove the tweeter. I don't think most people would have attempted that since you have to remove a trim piece on the horn before you can access the screws to remove the tweeter. It is held on by 3M adhesive tape and I wasn't sure once I got it off, how I was going to get it to stay back on. Fortunately, I figured out that you can remove the crossover by only removing the top woofer which is much easier to remove than the tweeter.

I believe Dean offered to upgrade my RF-7ii Crossovers for a few reasons:

1. This would give him the opportunity to upgrade his first pair of RF-7ii's and to see what parts were used in the design of the RF-7ii crossovers.

2. He knows I love photography and will take quality photos and document my journey

3. Dean is confident enough in his knowledge, ability and past experience upgrading Klipsch Crossovers, that he's very certain I will love the sound of the upgraded crossovers.

4. If #3 is true, I will be more than happy to share my enthusiasm about them and thus might generate some interest in others to do the same and bring him a new market of customers.

5. This will add another crossover to his portfolio.

Consider this.....both Dean and I have a lot to lose. If I get them back and I feel they sound horrible, I will have to order two new crossovers from Klipsch and if the first DeanG RF-7ii gets a negative review, he likely will not get many people wanting to try it on their speakers.

If they sound fantastic....both Dean and I have a lot to gain. I get to take my RF-7ii's to a new level of quality and Dean gets all of the 5 benefits stated above. Not to mention, if I like them enough, I might pay him to upgrade my RF-83, RC-64.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am, I got my B2's back from Dean today!

Awesome!!! What's a B2? LOL I'm guessing that's the name of the crossover in the Heresy's?

Bill, we are glad to have you in the forums. What a barter situation you found. P38's for construction work. That's sweet bro! $12,000 / pair retail speakers. Who wouldn't be excited about that?

I'm not sure which way to go on an amp….2, 3, 5 channel, monoblocks?

If it were me, I would either get a 3 or 5ch amp. Lots of great used amps that are very budget friendly. Easily get a 200 x 3 or 200 x 5 for under $1000. Check into B&K, Parasound, Acurus or Emotiva.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am, I got my B2's back from Dean today!

Awesome!!! What's a B2? LOL I'm guessing that's the name of the crossover in the Heresy's?

Bill, we are glad to have you in the forums. What a barter situation you found. P38's for construction work. That's sweet bro! $12,000 / pair retail speakers. Who wouldn't be excited about that?

I'm not sure which way to go on an amp….2, 3, 5 channel, monoblocks?

If it were me, I would either get a 3 or 5ch amp. Lots of great used amps that are very budget friendly. Easily get a 200 x 3 or 200 x 5 for under $1000. Check into B&K, Parasound, Acurus or Emotiva.

Thanks, Emotiva was one the he recommended also, said they were pretty good for the money. It really wasn't trading work for these speakers, he basically gave them to me to show his appreciation for all the work I did, plus connecting him to a few other contractors that worked out well for him. I still owe him a favor or two. I'll look into the other amps you mentioned….thanks again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awesome!!! What's a B2?

They go in a Cornscala. Pic is on page 27 of the Crossover Roadshow thread HERE post 527.

Edited by CECAA850

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It really wasn't trading work for these speakers, he basically gave them to me to show his appreciation for all the work I did, plus connecting him to a few other contractors that worked out well for him.

Wow, even sweeter deal! Very nice gesture of him.

Awesome!!! What's a B2?

They go in a Cornscala. Pic is on page 27 of the Crossover Roadshow thread HERE post 527.

Gotcha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fjd,

Deep sigh.

I know a little, but not enough to carry a torch without tripping and lighting myself on fire. : ) I am however both flattered and humbled, and you've given me some important things to think about. Quite a bit there I hadn't considered.

Though I have been mentored by Bob and Al, and consider them both friends - they also both irritate me equally to no end. Though they have given me countless hours of their time, I share very little with them in the way of opinions regarding passive components. My only true kindred spirits are Mark Deneen and Dennis Kleitsch, and I thank them both for convincing me that I'm not losing my mind. I love Bob and Al like surrogate fathers, and wouldn't trade those relationships for a winning lottery ticket, but I'm pretty sure they're both deaf. It's okay, they both know I believe that.

Okay,

I can't do RF-7ii networks unless people can first be convinced that they are relatively easy to remove. I told Youthman that if he documented the removal process, I would pay for the upgrade, so yes, a barter. However, I told him it was completely up to him whether he went public with his comments. I don't pay for, or compel people to review my work. What I really needed here was a brave soul who was willing to get inside of these loudspeakers. The FaceTime session with him was nerve wracking - trust me, this man is completely insane.

I choose my beta testers carefully. Mike Stehr is part of a small group who is helping me decide whether or not to go production with the DC biased/charged coupled crossovers. He's the only hard core audiophile in the group. So what's a "hardcore audiophile"? Well, normally someone who knows what it's like to listen while sitting in a bean bag chair. Mike probably thought I was just being really nice by sending all of those parts, but it was the cost of a much needed opinion. The other two were "Thaddeus" and Carl. Thaddeus had just started the "how to listen thread", and was getting ready to try Al's Universal for the Cornwall. Fresh ears, without previous exposure to a thousand different things can be very beneficial. This back to back comparison with a popular network would be very helpful. Carl is a seasoned listener, and did the RF-7 mod in stages. He also had a set of Cornwalls with a pair of Dave Harris' horns. So, we are about to watch these three guys compare notes. I can't help but think that Schu is sitting at the top of the hill though with those Jupiter Flat Stacks. I put my call in earlier this evening for the rest of mine. God willing, I'll be picking up some LaScala Splits next weekend, and I'll be comparing four different crossovers over the next month. Revisiting some things will be fun, and thanks to Dave Harris, I have a very nice sounding 3 watt amp (I can hear you HT guys laughing from here), along with a 160 watts of Luxman velvet to do the comparisons.

But before all of that, Youthman's RF-7ii networks will be done and shipped. Parts Express didn't have the resistor values in the Mills like I thought, so I ordered them with my Jupiter capacitor order from SonicCraft down in Texas. I'm hoping the order shows on Wednesday so I can USPS on Thursday, which would get them to Youthman on Saturday.

I'd like to thank everyone down here in the HT Section for not busting my chops on the self promotion thing. Which reminds me, sometimes that's another reason I'm not as helpful as I used to be - it's tough to jump into a crossover thread knowing that most are probably thinking the only reason you're in the thread is so you can get a plug in for yourself. I guess I just need to quit worrying about it.

A final note of interest. I have hired John Warren to do some testing for me. The reason for this is because I needed acoustic measurements. The kind normally seen around here are purely electrical or modeled using software, and I've lost some confidence in anything that doesn't involve a microphone. John's work is tied to something Dennis and myself have been working on. I have a strong feeling that John's involvement may extend beyond testing. I say this because these partnerships are kind of like putting a band together -- and gotta feeling about this one.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being the least hardcore audiophile, I hope my feedback has been helpful. :P

I wish I could beam you guys over to have a listen and help me describe. According to popular opinion my Cornwalls are too close together, in too small of a room, far too close to the LP for proper time alignment, using questionable crossover methods, connected to crappy class D amplifier technology over my crappy internal laptop DAC and playing digital files (oh the humanity!).

I should be scraping out my eyes and tearing off my ears.

I have just the right amount of bass, wonderfully pleasant mids and highs, great instrument separation and just great presentation of most music. this setup is VERY revealing. stuff that was mastered crappy still sounds crappy. and I don't have a very wide sound stage, but that's a byproduct of speaker placement.

I find myself listening at lower volumes, around 75dB, not because the sound is wretched or straining at high volumes, but because I get all of those described qualities without have to blast myself out of the chair. all characteristics are present at 85dB and 95dB, they're just louder.

I'm really anxious to start seeing comments from Carl and Mike Stehr about their CC'd crossovers to see if they can back up what I'm hearing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol, well, I didn't freaking know that you were building your own amps when I picked you - I thought you were a rookie.

That's what happened to me. I love the sound of the little T-amps. After I built my passives for the Jubilees, I drove the whole deal with 15 watts of Tripath, and I thought it sounded great. I was pushed into late night listening because there was no other time to do it, and that's when I discovered how great low level listening could be. This little SEP amp has that quality, but it's a little richer sounding through the midrange.

When I get completely caught up again, I'd like to build a set of normal B2s for you guys to compare with your battery biased versions. It's going to be a while though. Right now, the way I'm looking at it - it's relatively inexpensive to implement, certainly doesn't hurt the sound, and IF it MIGHT bring some improvement, why not go for it. I'm curious, where are you getting the negativity from on this, because I couldn't find any. I looked pretty hard too because I was pretty sure Dennis (DJK) and Michael (Speakerfritz) had finally lost it. I was told earlier today that guys like PWK and JB Lansing were known for going along with the occasional white lie out of the marketing or engineering department if it would sell more speakers. I guess I can accept that, I'm not completely naïve, but I have a tough time believing they would perpetuate and proliferate "white lies" like bypassing and charge coupled crossovers. In my limited experience, if there's going to be corner cutting, it's going to be found in the crossover. This isn't the place for doubling the amount and values of the capacitors, while adding an expensive battery, just so you can add an extra line into a sales brochure about some stuff that most wouldn't care about or understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...