Deang LaScala/Crossover Thread

[Deang]

I've tried three different crossovers so far: A very well built pair of SuperX networks, a pair of Type AAs build with Auricaps, and a pair of Type AAs built with Jupiter Flat Stack Films and modified to include a 40mH inductor in series with the squawker. I'm not so much in interested in doing apples to apples comparisons as I am in comparing the products I sell to people. So far, there hasn't been anything revelatory, and everything is playing out just as I expected it would. Remember, I did most of this back when I had my Klipschorns. The only difference right now is back then, I didn't have the Jupiters. However, I did have the Jensen paper in oils.

This idea that people have poor auditory memory is flawed, because I'm not having any problem remembering what circuits and parts I think sound better than others. I built my website based on memory, made recommendations over the last half decade based on memory, and am now building my system based on those same mental impressions. 7 years ago I said I preferred Jensen paper in oil loaded Type As to the Universal and Super AA (SuperX). I haven't built any Type As yet, but I can tell you that right now, I have no interest whatsoever in removing the pair of Jupiter loaded AAs I built for the system. I often hear the Jensens described as being "warm" sounding, but I never really thought that was a very good description of the sound. Something that's "warm" tends to obscure detail, and I certainly never felt the Jensens did that, on the contrary, the sound is rich in detail and perfectly balanced. Because they are quite similar, I was having a real hard time trying to find the words to describe the difference between the Jensen and the Jupiters to Craig in a network. Craig blurts out that Jeff Glowacki says "they are the most natural sounding capacitor he's ever heard". Okay, I can go with that -- it's a good word for what I'm hearing. All I know is that out of everything I have in the arsenal, they allow the K-400 to sound the least objectionable and most listenable. The Type AAs with the Auricaps are second, while the SuperX loaded with the big ClarityCap ESA and the Mundorf Supremes -- follow in closely behind. The Auricaps are still scary good for the money. For live level listening, all three crossovers were modified to take an additional 3db off (-6dB). Seriously, it just plain sounds better. Anything under 85dB, and the stock 3dB down setting sounds better.

I have a gallery page up on my website now if you want to check out the humble abode and the simple set up in the basement. I didn't expect to, but I'm getting some really good sound down there. I uploaded two pages on the DC biasing of capacitors, but they don't expand big enough to read. I suppose at some point they'll find their way into this thread.

Edited July 3, 2014 by DeanG

[Guest Steven1963]

Dean, a glass of red wine and a couple melatonin will help you sleep like a baby and eliminate those 'up all night,' nights.

I'm looking forward to my networks. It's gonna be a good week.

[Marvel]

I think he just posted before he went off to work...

[tk49]

After trying stock AL'3's, refreshing the stock AL'3's with sonicaps, then your roadshow AA's, then your Universal's, then the ClarityCap/Mundorf Supremes, which gave me detail and clarity I never had before and a sound stage that was big, with each instrument was well placed and a clean edge to it, I thought I had it all. Then I heard the AA's with the Jensen Oilers, they did all the ClarityCap/Mundorf Supremes did and gave an additional coherent sound that was the match I was looking for in my system. The LaScala's have never sounded more natural, I have to say it's been quite a journey. Are the SuperX loaded with the big ClarityCap ESA and the Mundorf Supremes anything like the ones you built for me? I should mention the other modifications I've made is Dave's Fastrac horn and reinforcing the bass bins.

I agree with your comment on sonic memory, I've done the whole power down, switch tubes, interconnects, whatever, then fire back up trying to compare, sometimes you hear it sometimes you don't. But long term listening and memory of that does work, at least for me.

t

[Deang]

Too funny -- I was up all night.

But long term listening and memory of that does work, at least for me.

Right, for example, if I drive a Mustang, and then drive a Taurus -- five years can go by and I will remember that I preferred the Taurus experience over the Mustang experience. I can tell you what I liked and didn't like that caused me to make the choice I did -- although the exact nature of the feel through the steering wheel might begin to fade. So, when people at work ask me why I bought the Taurus, they don't all freak out and start talking about how there's no way in hell I could possibly remember "all of that" about the Mustang "experience".

I don't need Jubilees in the house to remember that I didn't care for the sound of the K-69-A compression driver. I also remember the experience with the passives I built and the active set up with the Crown xTi amplifiers. I also remember the differences between the two passives I built, as well as the various amplifiers, including the Crown D45 and Tripath amplifiers.

One of the reasons I bought these LaScalas was because I found out through the grapevine that I was drawing criticism for not owning any Heritage Klipsch loudspeakers. What's my problem -- I don't like Heritage? Worse yet, how can I be talking up the great sound of the various things I build when I can't even hear them? I consider these criticisms to be nonsensical. The first and most obvious thing should be that 90% of the time, it's the purchasers/recipients of my builds that are making these statements, not me.

I had a really nice system, which I had to sell off because my house was falling apart. Then I got Cancer, and all of the medical bills that go with it, and just in case no one has noticed -- Heritage loudspeakers are kind of expensive. But, this idea that I don't know what this stuff sounds like is kind of silly. I've owned just about every Klipsch Reference Series and Heritage Series loudspeaker there is, including the Jubilee. I was one of the first adopters of Al's Trachorn, and tore down the entire top section of my brand new $6000 Klipschorns, and I've built the various available networks just about every different way possible. Again, I have no problem remembering what I liked and what I didn't -- and why. Can you tell that I'm a little irritated by this, you bet I am. I've made over $20K in NEW Klipsch purchases, which of course doesn't include the driver and horn mods, or the gazillion dollars I've spent on the passive parts to experiment with. When venturing into uncharted waters, I've used beta testers so I can get a range of opinions on some of the new stuff I've been doing. Though isolated from each other, these testers have always come out agreeing with one another, along with my assertions.

I'm glad I have these in the house, it's been a lot of fun -- but so far, there hasn't been anything that I've heard that has detracted from what I learned from the previous experiences. I will say that what started out as a way to perform listening tests, has turned into a very nice second system to jam and do movies with.

I see a lot of posts from people who are reinforcing their bass bins. I remember reading a Dope from Hope or something to that effect where PWK explained why that was a bad idea. Does anyone remember the document?

Edited July 3, 2014 by DeanG

[Max2]

Great new photo page on your site Dean. Geez, its just like a mail order candy store over there.

[Deang]

Al beats me up because I allow the customer to have input on what gets built for them. He says it just confuses the customer and I sell too much stuff. I'm like, "Hey, I build a half dozen networks and offer them in a few different flavors, btw, have you looked at your site lately -- and you think I'm confusing customers."

Yours just got finished, I'll have those pics up before the night is over.

The kids are downstairs watching "Ice Age" at about 120dB. The floor up here is shaking, because, well, you know -- LaScalas don't have any bass.

Edited July 7, 2014 by DeanG

[Budman]

thats funny Dean, i just read a topic on cornwall 1's or 2's and a newbie said cornwalls don't have any bass either

[Coytee]

Too funny -- I was up all night.

But long term listening and memory of that does work, at least for me.

Right, for example, if I drive a Mustang, and then drive a Taurus -- five years can go by and I will remember that I preferred the Taurus experience over the Mustang experience. I can tell you what I liked and didn't like that caused me to make the choice I did -- although the exact nature of the feel through the steering wheel might begin to fade. So, when people at work ask me why I bought the Taurus, they don't all freak out and start talking about how there's no way in hell I could possibly remember "all of that" about the Mustang "experience".

Ok, we can accept that you got married and domesticated. Otherwise, choosing a Taurus over a Mustang would deserve a knock in the head with a pair of 56 MF capacitors..... (not that I have a clue about a 56 MF capacitor)

[Deang]

The new Taurus is a sleeper. It's in the performance luxury class, and I really like it. It's three hundred horses with a six speed transmission, and it kicks down real good no matter where you are on the speedometer. If I'm doing 90, I can get to 115 in less than 10 seconds. I feel "trapped" inside the Pony, and with the back problems I have, I don't like having to pull myself out of the car. I've had it over a year now and would buy it again in a second -- it's an awesome vehicle.

[mikebse2a3]

I see a lot of posts from people who are reinforcing their bass bins. I remember reading a Dope from Hope or something to that effect where PWK explained why that was a bad idea. Does anyone remember the document?

Hey Dean.........not sure what document you might be thinking of but I can tell you that I had a conversation with Jim Hunter shortly after buying some new LaScalas in 1984 about the sidewall resonance and he and Klipsch was well aware of it and suggested a brace from the dog house to sidewall as one solution. He also explained that due to how the majority of the LaScalas were used(ie: sound reinforcement) and production issues of the dog house not being perfectly centered thus making each brace would have to be custom fit so they hadn't put it into production.

I will say that if one does the bracing there might be some benefit to tweeking the crossover as my understanding was done in part for the LaScala ll due to it's stiffer sidewalls.

miketn

[Guest Steven1963]

By no means am I an aficianado on sound. But I know what I like. And since I'm paying the bills, that's what I get - or more truthfully, that's what I am striving for . That being said, I agree that my ear has a memory - and an imagination. I can hear in my head what sound I am looking for. Will the new networks Dean is mailing me be it? Most certainly not. I'm a long way away from room dimensions and wall treatments before I get to where my imaginary ear is realized. But that doesn't mean the journey isn't exciting and the changes I am making aren't worthwhile. I enjoy sitting in front of my speakers and tweaking a setting on the equalizer (required, because of the room, and the amp, and practically everything else that alters the sound - including the EQ itself!). I am not perfectly centered between the speakers, but that is due to factors outside of my control and I just have to live with it for now; I can be found moving my speakers 1/4 inch inward because it doesn't 'look' like it is pointing directly at me.

This is a journey for something we all know exists but really do not want to acknowledge - achieving perfection. Because perfection is unobtainable! The problem is, the variables are infinite and even if we resolved them, our journey has been so long and arduous, but frankly...FUN! So we would never admit to it being perfect because that would mean the journey is over...AND IT CAN NEVER BE OVER! So even if we get there we aren't going to 'get there.' We will convince ourselves that it can still be better even though what we heard in our imaginary ears is now in front of us.

I've heard it said here on these forums that this is a disease. It is.

There is no doctor that would diagnose it as such and there is no scientist that is going to do a study on it. But they don't need to because we don't need a cure. We aren't hurting anyone and it is not 'necessarily' communicable (disclaimer: anyone that might listen to your system and realize what is possible, may catch it).

But here is what I think is the bottom line: History is littered with examples of fanatics that take things to extremes. Sometimes those examples hurt humanity and go down in history as a black eye in a frame of time. Other times, they expand our intellect; our being; our souls; in a very good, positive way. Guys like Dean, Al, Bob, and no doubt others who frequent here, are pioneers who are setting the goalposts for the next generation to further who/what we are - albeit in a very small but positive way: the human experience - as it relates to sound and music reproduction.

It might sound a bit corny, but that is how I see all this.

[Schu]

I think the empirical experience is very clear on these to this point... that somehow Jupiter has really something special to offer.

How this is accomplished or why it happens to be this way is anyone's guess... but it's a truism, these things are WONDERFULLY NATURAL.

Sound comparison is a little more problematic for me as I am one of those AB/back and forth observers and I think this is especially true, for me, if things are really close in comparrison. However, I also think it is relatively easy and fairly unmistakable, when you are layering upgrades, to know if that upgrade is of benefit or moves you forward after you have lived with something for an extended period.

Change isn't always good, but it is however change.

[Daddy Dee]

Thanks Dean. Your website looks really nice. good pics, too.

[IB Slammin]

Deano,

The boards that you built for Mark 1101.......Best LaS I ever listened to (with stock drivers)

tc

[Deang]

I got a few emails. I guess I annoyed some Jensen users with my blanket statement, "...all I know is that out of everything I have in the arsenal, they allow the K-400 to sound the least objectionable and most listenable.'

I need to point out that I have no Jensens in the shop right now, but I guess I better get some. This is a good example of where auditory memory fades. I recollect general impressions, not specific details of what I heard. So, the problem is that now, I have no Jensens, and back then, I had no Jupiters.

Jupiter did a great job with this capacitor and I really like what I'm hearing. I "remember" the Jensens sounding a little smoother and warmer and not quite as detailed -- but that was in a different system in a different room.

Right now, I would say that Jensen is tried and true, and that those weird square looking things sound really good too. Most good "upgrades" are often just laterals, and I think that is probably the case here.

I did confirm this: with the Jupiters (and Jensens) I can use the stock settings, with polypropylenes, I have to drop the midrange output down 3dB, if I don't, the squawker dominates the signature. It sounds anything but "balanced".

[Deang]

Thanks Dean. Your website looks really nice. good pics, too.

I was just thinking about you the other day -- I'm glad you're still around. How you feeling?

[Deang]

Deano,

The boards that you built for Mark 1101.......Best LaS I ever listened to (with stock drivers)

tc

I would love for Mark to be able to hear (if he has any hearing left!) what I've got going on over here. He swore by those copper foil inductors, and since I honestly didn't think it would make any difference what I used, I went ahead and loaded up. They're a pain to work with, but they do look extremely cool. With the exception of the low pass copper foil inductors, Mark and Craig ran the exact same network (SuperX: Auricaps, Hepa-Litz and AudioCap PPT Thetas in the high pass section). I'm going back to this standard config, but with a ClarityCap ESA Series cap at the primary position (Audience now has a very limited selection in values).

[Deang]

I see a lot of posts from people who are reinforcing their bass bins. I remember reading a Dope from Hope or something to that effect where PWK explained why that was a bad idea. Does anyone remember the document?

Hey Dean.........not sure what document you might be thinking of but I can tell you that I had a conversation with Jim Hunter shortly after buying some new LaScalas in 1984 about the sidewall resonance and he and Klipsch was well aware of it and suggested a brace from the dog house to sidewall as one solution. He also explained that due to how the majority of the LaScalas were used(ie: sound reinforcement) and production issues of the dog house not being perfectly centered thus making each brace would have to be custom fit so they hadn't put it into production.

I will say that if one does the bracing there might be some benefit to tweeking the crossover as my understanding was done in part for the LaScala ll due to it's stiffer sidewalls.

miketn

Yeah, I hear it, even at moderate levels. It's irritating to be sure. It's like the resonance is being used to augment the low frequency performance. I'd forgotten how the character of these speakers (Heritage) change as the volume goes up. As long as I keep it below 90dB, it sounds very nice, and I can't really find much to complain about -- most of the complaints would be centered about the fact that my poorly recorded material has been rendered unlistenable -- something I think we're all used to by now.

I'm double handicapped. I'm not a wood worker, and I'm not an engineer with a lot of cool test equipment -- so I can't properly design new filter arrangements. I know my limitations and I'm not embarrassed by them. With good numbers and reliable plots, I've have managed to stumble into some simple things that work pretty good. Having Bob, Dennis and John willing to accommodate me, provide input, and do testing for me, has been nothing short of awesome.

Last night I added a 128uF electrolytic in parallel with the K-33. I was curious to see what the effect on the resonance might be. Sure enough, it was greatly reduced, but then something else didn't sound right and I need to get my laptop down there to see what's going on. The real problem right now is that I'm eight builds back and can't do any serious testing until I get these networks done.

[BEC]

I did confirm this: with the Jupiters (and Jensens) I can use the stock settings, with polypropylenes, I have to drop the midrange output down 3dB, if I don't, the squawker dominates the signature

So, you are saying those caps soak up and dissipate half the power, 3db?

Edited July 5, 2014 by BEC