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PeteVoxx

LS II's - Not sounding as good as I thought

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22 minutes ago, PeteVoxx said:

 Ultimately, I did a factory reset of my AVR, skipped Audyssey and manually set the EQ for all channels.  They seem to sound more on-par with my 78's.

 

Fantastic news!  That officially gives me in the Dumass Award with my failed guess to the problem.  I've never been more happy to be wrong.

 

I'll scan the back posts to see who correctly said "AVR prob" and wins the Big Wiener award.

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On 12/28/2016 at 5:14 PM, pbphoto said:

How do they sound with Audyssey off?  i.e. "Stereo direct" or whatever your receiver calls it?  I have LS-2's but don't use Audyssey or any kind of room correction.

 

On 12/28/2016 at 5:33 PM, baron167 said:

Sorry to hear this! Do you have another amp you can try to rule out the Marantz?

 

 

On 12/28/2016 at 7:29 PM, Kevin S said:

My Heresy III's sound worse with Audyssey than without. And I have measured them in a multitude of microphone positions. This was not the case with my previous speakers. Personally, I would turn off Audyssey, turn off the subs, and start fine tuning positioning and toe in. Keep in mind that PWK recommended 45 degree toe in, so don't be inhibited by "audiophile" dogma.

 

On 12/28/2016 at 7:42 PM, Kevin S said:

Audyssey fools with far more than just frequency response. And what it does in one room is in no way transferable to another. And microphone placements within the same room can make night and day differences. You really should start from scratch, as in 2 channel with only the LaScala's, IMO. Best of luck! 

 

On 12/28/2016 at 10:10 PM, Schu said:

Unless there is a component issue, this is your problem right here ^

I run my LSii's flat for 2 channel and lightly EQ'ed for 5.1 (music and HT) and they sound spectacular. You are hearing exactly what emotiva and marantz sounds like. I would be willing to bet there is a set up issue also. Using a modern avr or pre pro can introduce way to many variables for some.

 

On 12/28/2016 at 11:34 PM, Max2 said:

Chances are your networks are fine. Some people swear by Audyssey even with two channel listening, but you're basically sending your content through a spaghetti strainer of logarithms with boost and cuts, adding distortion, compression and so on. If most people had a 35db or so listening space, they could then hear what Aud is doing to their music. For detailed two channel listening, you can't beat a direct source with any halfway decent room.  Just turn it off and go flat.  The LS II's are a different animal and actually put some of the higher tones and even high female vocals through the tweeter instead of the mid from the new style networks. They will sound different than the old LaScala. Once you get used to the old school pronounced mid like in old school La Scalas, its hard to escape it.  A really good midrange is the most important part of any speaker design because its almost everything our ears hear.  

 

Im guessing Aud is fighting that brick wall, a lot of echo and reverb as well, even with the rug you have. The hardwood floors don't help and the exposed wood floored corners create havoc.  You have a very sweet looking setup, you really should consider 4 large side sound panels and place two on each side of the fire place. I too have hardwoods and a rug, but until I added panels I never really knew what details and decay I was missing in the music content.  You might try hooking up any old AVR or basically anything else up to them without the Emo amp and see what you get.  Heck they LS's could even have a wire out of phase on each of them, you never know.  

 

On 12/29/2016 at 1:41 PM, Deang said:

1) Turn Audyssey off and put the receiver in Direct Mode.

2) Power off the receiver.

3) Turn the LaScalas around and start tracing out the connections.

4) Make sure that someone at the factory didn't inadvertently reverse the midrange and tweeter connections.

5) The network should be marked, showing which driver connects to which contacts.

6) If the wires are reversed, then your tweeters may be blown (but maybe not, because of the polyswitch/tweeter protection).

7) High frequencies for the tweeter will also be coming out of the midrange horn -- and the overall sound will be very much as you're describing.

8) If the wiring checks out, then in all likelihood, Klipsch sent out a pair with bad tweeters. This has happened quite a few times, which is why I was such an *** about it in the Klipsch Owners Group on Facebook.

 

7 hours ago, Deang said:

The LaScala II is a Stereophile Class A Loudspeaker - so it has plenty of snob appeal. IOWs, it doesn't suck. 

 

LOL!  Dean doubles down CORRECTLY that it is probably not the XO or its component parts.

 

Actually, quite a few people were right. 

 

PETE:  I didn't quote you but actually you were correct as well, I'm not sure why what you did, didn't work as the first thin you did IMMEDIATELY was reset Audyssey on the AVR.  It's just that Audyssey didn't do you any favors.  You certainly get props for not giving up on troubleshooting this very tough problem.

 

pvPhoto got it right, right away.  He's the Big Wiener.  :emotion-19:

 

I'd give a 2nd place tie to Dean and Scu, who were also very sure about it being a setup problem.

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On 12/28/2016 at 3:14 PM, pbphoto said:

How do they sound with Audyssey off?  i.e. "Stereo direct" or whatever your receiver calls it?  I have LS-2's but don't use Audyssey or any kind of room correction.

Second post nailed it. We should have closed the thread right then, LOL.

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I wonder how many people have their audyssey settings messed up and don't know it? I run purely old school rigs so when my SIL had problems with her stereo, I knew it was probably the processor but it took me three trips to figure it out. The mains were set to big but the frequency cut off was set too high. Pretty sure my SIL would have never figured it out. 

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3 hours ago, russ69 said:

I wonder how many people have their audyssey settings messed up and don't know it? I run purely old school rigs so when my SIL had problems with her stereo, I knew it was probably the processor but it took me three trips to figure it out. The mains were set to big but the frequency cut off was set too high. Pretty sure my SIL would have never figured it out. 

I was blinded by my own experiences.  My Onkyo 717 has Audyssey but it is a basic version.  It doesn't set EQ the way the better versions do. I didn't think about that.

 

When Pete said he re-ran Audyssey with the new speakers, that sure sounded like the 100% right thing to do.  We all saw the EQ graph he put on Post 1 but I didn't really comprehend what it meant.  Several people suggested it was the Audyssey settings but I figured he had already done the proper thing so my assumption was that Audyssey could be ruled out as a problem.

 

Did I ever tell you about the time I took my Honda 100 motor apart because I assumed when it quit running on me that I had blown a valve?  And did I tell you when I found nothing wrong with the motor and put it back together, it turns out the gas tank was empty?

 

You would think I would have learned the first time, "never assume."

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Well I'm glad you figured it out. Don't feel bad I have seen these posts before. Where at the end it was something that was overlooked.

I went to help a friend with his AVR but I never owned one so I started from scratch. Turns out  one  speaker had shorted wire and it would shut down the whole AVR when ever it got to that speaker. Took me a few minutes to say to myself that speaker is doing it oh and that speaker was a blose..... Walked over looked at the back the banana plugs were touching together...DUUUHHH. To my defense I did not wire them up but I did look at all the connections for polarity like I always do for every system.

  Well let us know how things sound now that they are sounding better. Maybe A/B the old Scala with the New Scala.

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10 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

"AaronB123 a room and/or setup can make or break any loudspeaker's reproduction and I promise you they have far more influence overall than any production variations over the last few decades of the Klipschorn or any other heritage model for that matter. I've had my Klipschorns, Jubilees, LaScalas, Belle Klipschs, Heresy II, Chorus, and KPT 904 (With K402/HF Grand HF) in multiple rooms and any of these systems can sound like crap or magical depending on how well the room/setup was brought into balance with the loudspeakers and listener locations."

 

 

 

How true! I for one, think environment/room treatment and placement is EVERYTHING. Even a POS el cheapo speaker can sound great in the right room.

 

I've eaten more popcorn waiting in suspense for the new crossovers to arrive!

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Just curious...will you install one or both new crossovers or just keep what's currently installed?

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7 hours ago, PeteVoxx said:

And the jackass award goes to... ME!  There were enough posts here to cause me to stay up WAY later than normal, rack my brain and second guess myself (thank GOD).  Ultimately, I did a factory reset of my AVR, skipped Audyssey and manually set the EQ for all channels.  They seem to sound more on-par with my 78's.  I don't get it because I've got those same frequencies Audyssey had set at +6Db no higher than 4Db and yet those frequencies are so much more present than before.  Also, I've never had a problem using Audyssey; not with any speakers I've had using all the same equipment in the same room.  Again, I thank ALL of you for your input, advice and patience.  Too late for a drink now.  Tomorrow we'll celebrate!!!  

Awesome.  Glad you now are enjoying the LSII's.

 

I one time complained up-a-storm about some networks that were defunct...later to find out my terminals on my speaker wire were not stripped correctly (by me).

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LS II BEFORE MANUAL EQ

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ulg1g58n2cit26/LS II Demo.mov?dl=0

 

LS II AFTER MANUAL EQ

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ljkgk0cng4pyxs5/LS II - manual EQ.mov?dl=0

 

I haven't had a chance to listen with headphones but will when I get to work.  Opinions?  Hopefully you'll hear a difference!  

 

UPDATE: I had a chance to listen to these two videos and my second one which I did earlier today was recorded at a much lower volume.  I will re-post another "after" video this evening as I plan on putting my "new" speakers through their paces... again :)

 

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3 minutes ago, Ceptorman said:

Just curious...will you install one or both new crossovers or just keep what's currently installed?

Emailing Roy to advise of new found sound... I don't believe he'll be sending Xovers to swap.

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14 hours ago, AaronB123 said:

This is very discerning that 2 people have bought brand new La Scala's and neither thought they sounded that good. Perhaps that's why when I was on my quest for K-horns many people said the older the better. Anyone else that bought newer generation La Scala's want to share their experience? I know @Lost240 had a pair that he didn't seem to hold on to for that long. I think they were the latest generation too. Would you care to tell us how your experience was with them? 

@AaronB123 The only reason I sold my pair of La Scala IIs is because I preferred my Palladiums to them. There was nothing wrong with the sound. They could throw a huge soundstage and I wish I could have kept both. For reference I have also owned Heresy IIIs, Fortes, CF-3s, RF7IIs and Klipschorns. There was nothing wrong with the sound of the La Scala IIs

 

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What comes to mind is how Klipschorns are known for bringing out the worst in systems. Sounds like the LS II's are able to do that now, too!

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11 hours ago, PeteVoxx said:

Good chance 402s are coming soon with a Jub bass bin.  I will probably be searching here for bass bin plans to build myself for aesthetic appeal/WAF :)

I think this is a great idea!  I love mine.

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33 minutes ago, baron167 said:

What comes to mind is how Klipschorns are known for bringing out the worst in systems. Sounds like the LS II's are able to do that now, too!

They really are "garbage in - garbage out"  If it wasn't for my need of HDMI switching, I'd still be using my 1990 Yamaha Natural Sound receiver that was/IS wonderful and, I probably never would've had to put all of you through this!  

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2 minutes ago, PeteVoxx said:

They really are "garbage in - garbage out"  If it wasn't for my need of HDMI switching, I'd still be using my 1990 Yamaha Natural Sound receiver that was/IS wonderful and, I probably never would've had to put all of you through this!  

Ahhh Yamaha...I feel guilty (almost) admitting this, but I have 2 HT setups using Yamaha's (with HDMI switching) and 3 2-ch systems using Yamaha's - 2 R-9's and 1 R-8.

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I think HT receivers, even supposedly good ones, sound pretty anemic when compared to a good 2-channel receiver/integrated or separates. My tube integrated stomps all over my Denon 3808ci. 

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46 minutes ago, Deang said:

I think HT receivers, even supposedly good ones, sound pretty anemic when compared to a good 2-channel receiver/integrated or separates. My tube integrated stomps all over my Denon 3808ci. 

it seems that with many of today's moderately-priced HT receivers (integrated units specifically), that the manufacturer tries to pack it full of desirable features and unfortunately the quality of the amplification components suffers hence, sound suffers.  IMHO, buying an affordable, lower powered integrated amp with the features you want and using it as a pre/pro in conjunction with an older bad-*** amp is the way to go.  Once it's titled a pre/pro you're going to be paying more for it.  Just my two cents.  

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