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Falcar

Cornwall III vs La Scala II for rap/hip-hop music??

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46 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

How it works is like every where else in life, you ask for an opinion and everyone will have at least 2 to give you.  One of which is in an effort to reassure thenselves they bought the right speakers, car, motorcycle, turntable, cable, etc.

 

I'm trying to remember who is a hip-hop/tap fan on here that has owned both.  My recollection is they tended to prefer direct radiators for bass.  One forum member is a huge funk fan, he has owned everything pro and heritage Klipsch,  and he has always come back to expressing a preference for direct radiator bass.  He has indicated he thinks it is because that's what he grew up on and so just formed a preference to that kind of bass.

 

Paul Klipsch used to tell people he was.going to recalibrate his ears by going to a live symphony.  To him it was always a matter of getting as close and faithful to the original performance.  I don't know how that is going to equate with hip-hop.

 

The other issue is Klipsch just did a major update to the La Scala (AL-5) and so most/many will have never heard those.  I have, with properly tuned subs and tube amps and they sounded significantly better than my 90s era LS, but it was jazz and rock obviously selected for low end, and to show off new high end capabilities of the Tractrix tweeter.

 

I ran my LS with tubes and SS (McIntosh) and they sounded great with the right SS amp.

 

I sold my LS when I had the house for Khorns, kept my Cornwalls.  I would never sell my CW's.  Some days I'm just in the mood for Cornwalls.  

 

A Klipsch dealer recently mentioned that he purchased the last pair of Cornwall III's off the line to donate to the Klipsh Museum, so my unofficial speculation is you will see a new version of the CW soon.  If that's the case, everyone is going to be in the same boat, no idea until they actually hear them.

 

The engineer for these new versions has been Chief Bonehead, but he is a drummer and tends to like power metal stuff.  

 

@Marvel and some of the other technical folks could tell you, putting aside type of music and direct radiator bass, which speaker, on average, will work beat with a particular type of amp and topology.  As I recall, one of those speakers has been discussed as being a better match for SS vs. the other.  But that involves understanding phase, impatience curves, etc which I know nothing about.

 

@Youthman is a youth minister so he may have listened to some rap/hh and he is constantly rating subs with his LS home theater systen along with Reference  products.  He may have some good insight for you.  I taghed him so he may see this.

 

Where are you located, there may be a certified Heritage dealer close to you where you can listen for yourself.

 

Travis

 

 

 

Thank you. This is probably the most sensible reply in this entire thread instead of trying to convince me to put some ridiculous looking ugly monstrosities in my living room with questionable distortion and dispersion.

 

To be fair, there where some other good non-pro suggestions as well. I appreciate those as well.

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1 hour ago, ZEUS121996 said:

Rumor has it he can fish a little bit too! I wouldn't try and talk speakers with Roy, my knowledge is I know when I hear something I like.

 

Mark

He can fish ok, I think he has the fish trained and they know they will get released.

 

But you could talk speakers with him, if he can explain things to me so I can understand it you would have no problem. He is easy to talk to and talks to me in a way he knows I will get it. I know this because I have heard him talk about things past where I would bother to go, to me if It sounds like the best I have ever had or heard that's most of what I need to know.

 

It is very interesting and shocking how many things are considered designing and testing something new, you have  to love it to do a good job at it. Not even counting the knowledge and experience from 30+ - years and to have been working with a great teacher. 

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5 minutes ago, dtel said:

He can fish ok, I think he has the fish trained and they know they will get released.

 

But you could talk speakers with him, if he can explain things to me so I can understand it you would have no problem. He is easy to talk to and talks to me in a way he knows I will get it. I know this because I have heard him talk about things past where I would bother to go, to me if It sounds like the best I have ever had or heard that's most of what I need to know.

 

It is very interesting and shocking how many things are considered designing and testing something new, you have  to love it to do a good job at it. Not even counting the knowledge and experience from 30+ - years and to have been working with a great teacher. 

LMAO, he has them trained to know they will be released. So, barbless?

I've talked with Roy about fishing, he keeps that simple too. Try this lure with this rig. Sometimes he gets it right which is amazing because he goes off weather reports here? 

I think he could talk to anyone, he's that kind of person. He can also put them in their place. lol

 

Mark

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17 minutes ago, Falcar said:

 

Thank you. This is probably the most sensible reply in this entire thread instead of trying to convince me to put some ridiculous looking ugly monstrosities in my living room with questionable distortion and dispersion.

 

To be fair, there where some other good non-pro suggestions as well. I appreciate those as well.

It was good, I thought the same thing. 

 

There are only so many Heritage to pick from, so it would have to be one of the top few. I listen to different music than you but would guess unless you have the right room for Khorns it would have to be Lascala's, and a sub would make it about perfect for any kind of music.  imo

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3 minutes ago, ZEUS121996 said:

I think he could talk to anyone, he's that kind of person.

Yes he is.

 

3 minutes ago, ZEUS121996 said:

He can also put them in their place. lol

Yes, but sometimes he likes to do it with a question to see if your paying attention first. :huh: 

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1 hour ago, dwilawyer said:

  But that involves understanding phase, impatience curves

 

 

 

LOL!

 

I’m at the phase in my life that when my impatience curve trends upwards, I count my blessings (LaScala’s, Chorus 2’s, Cornwall’s... lol)

 

Thanks to the many constructive, patient, and KNOWLEDGEABLE members of this forum I am also at the point in my life where I hold certain truths to be self-evident.

 

1. There is no replacement for displacement. The bigger the better. If you have the room, fill it.

 

2. Don’t deny it until you try it. You will always wonder...

 

@Falcar, welcome to the forum. Your journey is headed in the right direction. Stick around and enjoy the ride.

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Falcar said:

 

Thank you. This is probably the most sensible reply in this entire thread instead of trying to convince me to put some ridiculous looking ugly monstrosities in my living room with questionable distortion and dispersion.

 

To be fair, there where some other good non-pro suggestions as well. I appreciate those as well.

You caught me in a rare moment of lucidity.

 

How soon do you want to make a decision on this?  Next week or so, 30 days?

 

If you are near Denver and can wait a couple or 4 weeks PM me and I can tell you what you might be able to listen to there.  If you are near Texarkana/Hope and can wait until October, PM me and I can tell you some options.

 

I guess I could narrow it down by asking which Rap, West Coast or East Coast.

 

Meanwhile, I am going to try and figure out who the rap/hip-hop affaciados were I am trying to remember. 

 

Do you happen to have a short list of refference tracks that are your go to for listening to a speaker you are interested in?  Like 3 or 5 tracks.  I can pull them up and play them on Cornwalls III's and tell you anything I notice, which may be nothing.  

 

What are the rough deminsions of your room.

 

@dtel owns Cornwalls, ask him if he would ever sell them.  There are many, many very happy Cornwall owners here, and there are going to be many, many more in the future.

 

In the past, the main CW v. LS discussions have been (and this goes back to before the day when good quality subs were available) was the LS had bedder mid and high end, especialky mid sounds, but was a major compromise in the low end, and the CW had great bass and people preferred the overall sound even though the mid range was a compromise.

 

I'm assuming that with your preferred music that the lower midrange down to the sub bass levels are a significant aspect.of the sound you are lookimg for.  If that's the case I would say if you have a good long wall in the living room LS is the way to go (assuming you known the subs you have,.or going to get) will keep up to your satisfaction.  I think you will find overall that to be a step up from the Cornwalls.

 

Travis

 

 

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1 hour ago, Falcar said:

to convince me to put some ridiculous looking ugly monstrosities in my living room with questionable distortion and dispersion.

Just to clarify, yes they are ugly (at.least most spouses think so), but when you have the whole system, like Jubilee 2.way, and an 1802 sub, you are going to have lower distortion, fulky engineered system using controled directivity that will be superior to Heritage line speakers because they are designed for theaters and the coverage patterns have to be precise, they have to play extremely loud with low distortion (thw reference level is 85db 2/3 to rear of the theater, and they have to play all day, every day (including Christmas).  So what you end up with in the home is a speaker that is more efficient/sensitive, and per PWK's axiom, distortion is proportionately inverse to efficiency (pro speakers, higher sensitivity, lower distortion, with controled directivity).

 

You wll experience a much wider sweetspot cleaner clearer sound.  It also will reveal poorly recorded tracks.  There are 100s of posts here where people bought LS, or Jubilees and remarked how bad a song they had hear hundreds of times sounded terrible on their new system.  They are very revealing and can be very unforgiving. 

 

Ttavis

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1 minute ago, dwilawyer said:

Just to clarify, yes they are ugly (at.least most spouses think so), but when you have the whole system, like Jubilee 2.way, and an 1802 sub, you are going to have lower distortion, fulky engineered system using controled directivity that will be superior to Heritage line speakers because they are designed for theaters and the coverage patterns have to be precise, they have to play extremely loud with low distortion (thw reference level is 85db 2/3 to rear of the theater, and they have to play all day, every day (including Christmas).  So what you end up with in the home is a speaker that is more efficient/sensitive, and per PWK's axiom, distortion is proportionately inverse to efficiency (pro speakers, higher sensitivity, lower distortion, with controled directivity).

 

You wll experience a much wider sweetspot cleaner clearer sound.  It also will reveal poorly recorded tracks.  There are 100s of posts here where people bought LS, or Jubilees and remarked how bad a song they had hear hundreds of times sounded terrible on their new system.  They are very revealing and can be very unforgiving. 

 

Ttavis

 

Yeah I don’t buy it. Pro speakers are meant for a different purpose, not for critical listening. Pro speakers are built to be super loud to fill up theaters and auditoriums. Corners have to be cut in sound quality to provide that loudness in a portable package.

 

My system is already so loud that anything over -40 dB is too loud and -25 dB is ridiculously blasting it.

 

Take a look at a TIDAL LA ASSOLUTA. Sure it’s way more expensive than a Klipschorn but the LA ASSOLUTA is still considered a super high-end audiophile speaker because of sound quality, not because it’s the loudest thing possible.

 

Loudness is not everything. A train horn is plenty loud too, but that doesn’t mean it sounds good.

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Hey Falcar,

 

I do not regularly listen to Rap and Hip Hop but do have a little bit in my library and every so often I will give my system a work out with 

some Dre, Snoop, MM...

Since finding the virtues of hi efficient horns about 12 years ago I have had every Heritage model in my house, other than the Belle.

For me, the pecking order would be much as the Klipsch catalog is... KHorn>La Scala>Cornwall>Chorus II>Heresy.

Just as some have mentioned, there is for sure a difference between the ported bass of the Cornwall and the horn loaded bass of the KHorn and LS.

The Cornwall will play lower bass, but imho, to get the most out of well recorded Rap / HH, a good sub (or 2) would be ideal with either LSs or CWs.

 

For Heritage, my suggestion would be La Scalas with a horn sub or 2.

 

I think most of us that are "Klipsch Pro" users know that they really shine sonically, but I agree the aesthetics are not for everybody's living room.

 

And just to stir the pot up a little (more), lets not forget what one of the original uses of the La Scala was... PA speaker.

 

 

LS_History.png

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9 minutes ago, Falcar said:

 

Yeah I don’t buy it. Pro speakers are meant for a different purpose, not for critical listening. Pro speakers are built to be super loud to fill up theaters and auditoriums. Corners have to be cut in sound quality to provide that loudness in a portable package.

 

My system is already so loud that anything over -40 dB is too loud and -25 dB is ridiculously blasting it.

 

Take a look at a TIDAL LA ASSOLUTA. Sure it’s way more expensive than a Klipschorn but the LA ASSOLUTA is still considered a super high-end audiophile speaker because of sound quality, not because it’s the loudest thing possible.

 

Loudness is not everything. A train horn is plenty loud too, but that doesn’t mean it sounds good.

One of my favorite signs in Paul’s office.....don’t bother me

with the facts, I got my mind made up. Classic

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30 minutes ago, Falcar said:

 

Yeah I don’t buy it. Pro speakers are meant for a different purpose, not for critical listening. Pro speakers are built to be super loud to fill up theaters and auditoriums. Corners have to be cut in sound quality to provide that loudness in a portable package.

 

My system is already so loud that anything over -40 dB is too loud and -25 dB is ridiculously blasting it.

 

Take a look at a TIDAL LA ASSOLUTA. Sure it’s way more expensive than a Klipschorn but the LA ASSOLUTA is still considered a super high-end audiophile speaker because of sound quality, not because it’s the loudest thing possible.

 

Loudness is not everything. A train horn is plenty loud too, but that doesn’t mean it sounds good.

 

I cannot speak (pardon the pun) for any pro speaker other than Klipsch (Jubilee... K402 horn... K510 horn)... oh, and my Peavey FH-1 bass bins that are currently mated with the K402s.

But the previous Jubilee and current Peavey/402 set ups are the most "real" sounding and cleanest sounding speaker systems that I have had in my home.

Previous systems: Energy Connoisseur, KEF 107s, PMC OB1s, Magneplanar 1.7s, Totem Shamans.

 

Although the Jubilee... K402 horn will play very load (with very little power) that is not what they are about in a home environment, for me it is about realism, low distortion and a live sound.

 

This discussion will never resolve it's self on the inter web, but hearing is believing and if by chance you are in the Toronto area you would be welcome to listen to both

my La Scalas and my Peavey/402s.

 

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51 minutes ago, Falcar said:

Yeah I don’t buy it. Pro speakers are meant for a different purpose, not for critical listening. Pro speakers are built to be super loud to fill up theaters and auditoriums. Corners have to be cut in sound quality to provide that loudness in a portable package.

You don't need to believe us, just one day in the future when a chance comes up have a listen, just for yourself not anyone else. You will understand why that sounds so silly to so many here, sound quality at any volume should always be the number one goal no excuses, no matter what speaker produced it.

 

Now I know many would not put pro speakers in a living room because of looks, I get that, some have homes they feel are not suited for that look, but that's because of aesthetics, and personal choices, nothing wrong with that. We (wife and I) felt differently, we wanted what was the best sound period, we will work with the looks which were second.

 

And for the record here we listen easily below 50-60 db 90% of the time during the day, any speaker can go loud, but to sound great and detailed at low or medium volumes while sounding huge is great.

 

1 hour ago, dwilawyer said:

dtel owns Cornwalls, ask him if he would ever sell them.

Never, there in the bedroom rarely used but are not going anywhere, no question about it.

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10 hours ago, Falcar said:

f trying to convince me to put some ridiculous looking ugly monstrosities in my living room with questionable distortion and dispersion.

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder and many can agree with you that they're ugly.

 

You really need to hear the pro series before you assume distortion.  Every year in the spring forum members are welcomed into the factory in Hope where many of the Klipsch offerings are demo'ed.  I truly believe that if you listen to them you'll change your mind.  Consider yourself invited.  Don't take someone else's word for it, let your ears determine your opinion, not someone else's.

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8 hours ago, Falcar said:

Corners have to be cut in sound quality to provide that loudness in a portable package.

This is an assumption on your part?  If not I'd love to read the article that put that opinion in your head.  You really need to come to the factory and do some listening so that these myths can be dispelled.

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To all the people saying the Klipsch pro speakers are better, how about explaining this to me:

 

Why is a Cornwall III significantly bigger and heavier than a KI-396 if the KI-396 sounds better? Is Klipsch making the Cornwall bigger and heavier just for fun while purposely neutering it? To me that makes no sense at all. Some people claim the Forte III sounds better than the Cornwall but when I demoed them both, the Cornwall sounded a lot fuller due to its larger size, so why wouldn't it be the same when comparing a Cornwall to a KI-396?

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9 hours ago, Falcar said:

Yeah I don’t buy it. Pro speakers are meant for a different purpose, not for critical listening. Pro speakers are built to be super loud to fill up theaters and auditoriums. Corners have to be cut in sound quality to provide that loudness in a portable package.

 

 

Here's a perplexing problem....

 

We have the Jubilee. (and this is not a suggestion for you to buy a pair)  If you go to the cinema section you can find them.  They're big, they're bad, they're LOUD, perhaps they are ugly too.

 

The vexing problem?  They were originally designed to become the Klipschorn II and the company decided to not bring them out like that.  Instead, the speaker that was originally designed for HOME use, ended up in the cinema line.

 

So, since it was the last project that PWK worked on, it was his dream to take the Khorn back to a 2-way speaker and now, here it sits before you BUT you have to look in the cinema section....

 

Is it a Heritage speaker? 

Is it a cinema speaker?

Does it cut all the corners you say they have to cut since it's "Pro" speaker?

Does it have high fidelity since it was conceived as becoming the Klipschorn II?

 

I'll let you decide.

 

I personally am  beginning to suspect some disingenuous here.... (and again, this is NOT a sales pitch, I don't care what you buy nor what fits your home)  I'm just trying to open that steel (closed) trap of yours that you call your mind.

 

Since your mind is hermatically sealed on this, you suffer from some dogma which "is what it is" should that be the case, or you're just trolling around.

 

Heck, for all I know, you're Parrott re-incarnate

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8 minutes ago, Coytee said:

Heck, for all I know, you're Parrott re-incarnate

 

 

Haha... that's really funny.

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16 minutes ago, Falcar said:

To all the people saying the Klipsch pro speakers are better, how about explaining this to me:

 

Why is a Cornwall III significantly bigger and heavier than a KI-396 if the KI-396 sounds better? Is Klipsch making the Cornwall bigger and heavier just for fun while purposely neutering it? To me that makes no sense at all. Some people claim the Forte III sounds better than the Cornwall but when I demoed them both, the Cornwall sounded a lot fuller due to its larger size, so why wouldn't it be the same when comparing a Cornwall to a KI-396?

 

 

The mid range horn and drivers on the KI-396 are far superior to the Cornwalls. The weight difference is because the Cornwall cabinet is bigger. You want to pay 3x as much for a pretty wrapper then that's your choice but you're trading in sound quality for a better finish.

 

I find it funny you think pro speakers have higher distortion than speakers made specifically for the home. Cornwalls will distort and sound like they are struggling way before speakers like KP600'S, Jubilee's, and other pro speakers. The KP600's that someone linked to you to consider buying are the best speakers for rap music I've ever heard and destroy Cornwalls so badly they shouldn't even be compaired. 

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