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Garrett5463

Room acoustics/EQ advice

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Hello all, new user (and klipsch owner) here. Over the past few months I’ve been playing with a little mix ‘n match klipsch setup, 90% used for 2.2 music listening (other 10% for HT). The problem I am having is that at low levels the sound is great, but as the volume gets increased It approaches a level of almost ear-piercing treble and tweeter levels. I’ve played with the EQ levels on the AVR, incorporated some “surrounds” I guess you could call them, played with crossover on the AVR, but still when it comes time to ‘rock out’ the highs are just overwhelming. I am thinking about jumping up to the RP-8000’s soon after reading the reviews on the horn upgrades and all that, but haven’t made the jump yet in hopes of fine tuning my current setup. I just don’t quite have the audiophile insight that many on this forum have! 

 

Is there a possibility that my living room setup is just not very acoustically pleasing? Ceilings are nearly 20’ at the peak, and hardwood floors. The reason I am tempted to blame the room and not myself is because a coworker of mine has a very similar setup (R820’s I believe) and they sound SUBSTANTIONALLY better in his smaller, carpeted, game room. 

 

Anybody have any suggestions, pointers or tips??? Other than ordering RP-8000’s immediately and a Center channel ;)  I’ll attach some pics for visual reference. 

 

R-28F towers

RB-61ii surrounds

R-112sw up front and R-10sw behind couch

Sony STR-DN1080 

EFAE9E06-B109-411E-A85E-456D91EC75F9.jpeg

AD2F924B-5BD2-4249-AD32-D942C2E18494.jpeg

B1398830-1335-4293-8352-7595DF2AD24F.jpeg

Edited by Garrett5463
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7 minutes ago, Garrett5463 said:

It approaches a level of almost ear-piercing treble and tweeter levels

That's a function of the room's hard surfaces creating reflective sound.  You need to treat the room if you want decent sound in there.

 

Welcome to the forum.

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Welcome!

 

Put some thick, non-distracting (I'd think dark in color and skid proof) area rugs ("throw rugs") on the beautiful hardwood floor at the point at which the tweeter sound hits the floor and bounces off right into the listener's ears.  A way to determine just where this "first reflection point" is is to temporrarily put a mirror flat on the floor and have someone else move it around while you sit at the Main Listening Position (MLP) or, for a larger audience, at each of the Listening Positions (LPs), and wherever you see the reflection of any speaker, put an area rug right where the mirror was..

 

Normally, you would put absorbers on the walls at their first reflection points, as well, but your walls just might be far enough away so I'd make changes one, or a few, at a time, and see what happens.  Thick drapes might help. Close while listening.

 

Don't over deaden.  An over-dead room sounds just as bad as an over-live one.

 

Your room has many complex shapes in it, which might provide rich, GOOD reverberation, once you get the harshness out.

 

Coffee tables are often a problem.  Thick cloth covers, or partial covers, sometimes help.

 

You might want to add to the acoustical complexity by putting in some attractive diffusors, as well.  What you want to avoid are "slap back" echos, specular reflections, etc. 

 

Do you happen to have a Marantz or Denon  AV Receiver or AV Preamp-processor?  If so, AFTER you acoustically treat the room, run Audyssey to make what are usually positive changes in EQ and the handling of the time domain.  Some older models of other brands have Audyssey, too.  If that's what you have, read this first: "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"

 

Audyssey removed a peak at 8K in my Klipschorn tweeter, and smoothed out the rest of the treble and midrange. 

 

Almost all users of Audyssey end up turning up their subwoofers a bit AFTER using it, because Audyssey gives you Reference, not Preference, and most of us like our bass.

 

If you have NAD, it might have Dirac.  There are several levels of this.  I don't know if NAD provides a high level, but the highest levels are purported to be even better than Audyssey.

 

How many watts per channel do you have, both main channels operating, 20 to 20K, at distortion below about 0.1%?  It is extremely unlikely that your receiver or amplifier is clipping, given the sensitivity of your speakers, but since your room is large and has a connecting room, I thought I'd ask.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Not much help with your question but I needed to comment and tell you that is an awesome looking room! 

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6 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

That's a function of the room's hard surfaces creating reflective sound.  You need to treat the room if you want decent sound in there.

 

Welcome to the forum.

I agree. In my opinion, the room's acoustics are almost more important than the speakers when it comes to good sound.

 

Also, I don't know how that peaked ceiling will affect the acoustics.

 

A good stereo shop that deals with installations, or an acoustics consultant, may be able to assess your needs.

 

It's a beautiful room, and any acoustic treatments should not detract from the room. An interior designer may be a reference, or could give you a referral.

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Garrett5463,

 

Welcome.

 

I have some suggestions that have nothing to do with room treatments, even though your room is a prime candidate for it.

 

Spread your speakers farther apart, as far apart as you can place them and still be symmetrical with the TV (Maybe even shifting the TV over to the left some).  Then toe them in, toe them in enough that the triangle they form will meet just before your listening position, and the corner of the speakers closest to the wall is about a foot away form the wall.  Put your subwoofer in the middle. And here's the thing about subs: They can have a dramatic effect on the high frequencies of your main speakers. Experiment with moving the sub closer or further from the wall behind it independently of the main speakers, experiment with the crossover frequency (raising the crossover frequency on the sub can have a warming effect on the highs), and experiment with the phase switch, it can really make a difference. 

 

I set my sub's crossover frequency on the highest setting, it really helps warm things up for me. And try variations of all the measurements I've given you if you feel you're still not taming those horns. Paul Klipsch believed in toeing in because it tends to create a solid wall of sound in front of you that then radiates back towards you. It seems to increase the stereo sweet spot and can improve imaging. Plus you don't have those horns pointing directly at you but crossing in front of you creating a warming effect.

 

538956086_2019-12-1821_06_17.jpg.b24c3fab03ed871448df16537a649eef.jpg

 

 

 

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Your room looks great to the eye but is most likely some of your problem to your ears. Like was said above spread your speaker out to at lest eight or nine ft. I use a little toe in but not much. Straight ahead may even be better. Speaker placement can be very important.  I have to use a little eq on the highs, and alot of problems for me also come from around 1000 to 2000 hz. I cut mine about 2 db in that range and fatigue is gone. Sometimes its in the 2000 to 4000hz range also. If you can find a graph of your speakers freq response it can show where it has peaks db wise that may need pulled down a fuzz. I will post a graph at the bottom like im talking about but I could not find one for your speaker.. . Having your covers on the speakers help a little also. Or you can blow your house up and build a perfect room if thats easier😎.  I like the dog by the way! Peace

 

915klip.meas.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Garrett5463 said:

The reason I am tempted to blame the room and not myself is because a coworker of mine has a very similar setup (R820’s I believe) and they sound SUBSTANTIONALLY better in his smaller, carpeted, game room. 

Add carpet from the loudspeakers toward the listening positions (LPs).  The thicker, the better.  The distance that carpet needs to extend from the loudspeakers to the LPs should be at least 3-4 feet to control the floor bounce at your LPs.  It also needs to be about 3 feet wider than the loudspeaker placements.

 

You may have to do something about that wall behind the loudspeakers that tilts toward the LPs (an acoustic problem with all canted ceilings down low near the height of the loudspeakers).  You can try moving the loudspeakers out away from the wall and re-calibrating the distances, etc., toed-in toward the LPs.  If this strongly affects the issues that you hear, then I'd recommend absorption panels on that wall around the woofers and out to 3-4 feet from the loudspeakers.  The problem is that those loudspeakers do not control their horizontal polars below ~1200 Hz (or higher), and therefore splash a lot of lower treble in that frequency band and lower around the room at that point.  This is perceived as being louder in that band, especially when you up the SPL a bit (just like you mention).

 

Chris

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Everybody's keying on reflections at the sound source.  First thing I'd deaden is the area behind the sofa where you're sitting.

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7 hours ago, glens said:

Everybody's keying on reflections at the sound source.  First thing I'd deaden is the area behind the sofa where you're sitting.

 

Or deaden half of the area behind the sofa, and put diffusers on the other half(?).  Stagger them, checker board style.  Your beautiful room is already pretty bold, this would make it bolder.

 

Some diffusers look pretty good.  You might be able to paint or stain them to match the wall color, or to make an interesting contrast.

 

image.png.7b0dcbd6aab3bdcc689474787da84e7c.pngimage.png.58d96bed1d6118346cebdb13cc3c1ae4.pngimage.png.9ce8173f55f113247a849e9384a8033a.png

image.png.72173ed3fe9410046238943af4ba7afe.pngimage.png.217eb7497b786cee23d809694c0a485b.pngimage.png.da1b72ccabcabd7715a25813841cddc9.png

 

How far is the sofa from the rear wall?

 

Some Rock, Pop, and Metal recordings have the bass turned down, the upper midrange turned up, and the highest overtones turned down..  It is a crazy recording industry practice.  They will sound harsh on a relatively honest speaker system.  For the reasons, see Chris A's threads on de-mastering.   To the degree it is a matter of balance, turning up the sub a bit may help.  If you crossover to the sub at 80 Hz, you may still need some upper bass boost (~~80 Hz to ~~200 Hz) as well.  The tone controls on your AVR should take care of this.   In my experience, Classical and Jazz are not as bad, and often pretty good.  Blu-rays are usually superb.

image.png

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Combine a brighter Klipsch speaker with a hard room and bright upstream components that don't have adequate drive, particularly at high loads and volumes, will generate bright sound.  Changes to the reflective areas is needed first though placement and possibly replacement of some of the components would also be helpful.

 

Some speakers are made and voiced for H/T which forces vocal intelligibility for movies as their highest priority which works against what you want to hear when you do want to rock out.  Better balance of all the attributes of the equipment goes up as the volume control gets turned.

 

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ROOM treatment, is EVERYTHING !

   Get that right, and you are 75% there,

         ...with your Klipsch !

 

~Enjoy the Journey. 

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All good advice, especially Gary's.  Your pics don't show the walls behind the couch, but those reflections should be damped.  If this is a Home theater system, a little deader than a 2-channel room is better.  Your rear channels are meant to provide ambiance. 

 

Gary found some great looking diffusers!   I want.  Gary, where are they available? 

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I think if I had a room that looked like that, sound quality would be the least of my concern. Lol.  That's a great looking room and, unfortunately, is not SQ friendly without a lot of work.  Got any other room where you can enjoy tunes in? 

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5 hours ago, JohnA said:

 

All good advice, especially Gary's.  Your pics don't show the walls behind the couch, but those reflections should be damped.  If this is a Home theater system, a little deader than a 2-channel room is better.  Your rear channels are meant to provide ambiance. 

 

Gary found some great looking diffusers!   I want.  Gary, where are they available? 

 

Some of them are available from GIK Acoustics, including one of the two I like best, for visual aesthetics, the Gotham thing.  image.png.34fbef9beeea15103dfe32e83c526d3b.png  I know nothing about the acoustical characteristics, other than what they, and other sources (companies and journal articles on Google), say.  I like the idea of 2 dimension diffusers, i.e., both right/left and up/down in the same diffuser.          

https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gotham-n23-5-inch-quadratic-diffusors/

 

They also make a poly that resembles the ones PWK put DIY plans for (a la Dr Bonner) on The Dope from Hope many years ago.  As you probably know, forum member Artto did a great room with a spate of these -- look him up here.  I would think that several sizes and several orientations, as Artto used, would be preferred.image.png.b8f40fee4378b0308889712581cb4171.png

image.png.87415117e13b36dd6190facfa29bd50a.png

 

IIRC, Artto had some choice nouns and adjectives for the idea that polycylindrical diffusers aren't really diffusers.

 

 

I've read that some kinds of diffusors need to be at a greater distance than others --- the only one I happen to remember had the term "bright screen" in it's description.

 

All I have are book shelves with art objects ("polydimensional" ☺️) and these image.png.1e70edcdc25b9a5ddd3b17b5cbb30a3d.png

and a few absorbers and a thick rug.

 

Nobody seems to know whether these devices are spelled diffusors or diffusers.  Failure to type the word "acoustical" before either spelling produces atomizers, also blessed with two spellings.

 

 

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16 hours ago, garyrc said:

Nobody seems to know whether these devices are spelled diffusors or diffusers.  Failure to type the word "acoustical" before either spelling produces atomizers, also blessed with two spellings.

 

 

I believe it's a choice/mix of British English or American English spelling.

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19 hours ago, garyrc said:

 image.png.34fbef9beeea15103dfe32e83c526d3b.png 

I know nothing about the acoustical characteristics, other than what they, and other sources (companies and journal articles on Google), say.

 

That critter has got differing characteristics vs. frequency, I'd wager.

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If your AV Receiver has an EQ try reducing the levels between 4KHz-8KHz. For many ears this area can sound hard or harsh. usually 1-3 decibels will do the trick.

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