Are Your Capacitors Installed Backwards ??

[Islander]

6 hours ago, glens said:

I think I can "see" where Jeff is coming from (not that I concur entirely).  You can be listening at a level of milliamps average level but a sudden transient would, for the instant, increase the level at a rate that, were it sustained, be amps, yet no so long as to raise the overall average appreciably.  And if there weren't a sufficient reservoir of electrons under pressure in the leads (like fuel in the line feeding the Corvette engine), the pressure might fall too far before the transient can be properly delivered, and the speaker would run lean on the peaks.

 

Does that about sum it up, Jeff?

 

That's all I ever said (he said, hoping not to be seen as a troll, a fool, or "the problem with audio today").  Bigger speaker cables can give better dynamics.  No improved detail retrieval, no "lifting of veils", no extra bass depth, just more realistic handclaps and drumbeats.  That's all, and for the reasons you just described.

 

That sums it up.  The rest is just background and context.

 

Klipsch speakers, particularly the very sensitive/efficient Heritage Series, already have some of the best dynamics of any speakers on the market, so any improvements in their dynamics would be more subtle than what you'd get with other speakers, maybe even inaudible to some listeners.  In my case, I was just starting to put together a basic stereo, after years with an older setup, with a 1977 stereo receiver with one channel that would come and go.  The "new" system included my old speakers, a pair of Audio Logic AL-750 bass reflex floorstanders with two 10" woofers and two dome tweeters in each speaker.  Sensitivity is around 94-95 dB/W/m.  They got shifted to the bedroom when the La Scalas arrived in the living room.  Driving them back then, pre-LS, was a 1998 AVR bought second-hand, with 50 watts per channel.  A system with room for improvement, you might say.

 

After getting the speakers' old spring clips replaced with binding posts, along with some other updates and repairs, it became possible to replace the old lamp cord that I'd been using, first with 12 gauge and later with 8 gauge speaker cables.  I immediately noticed the improved dynamics that I've been mentioning.  About a year later, I bought the 1974 La Scalas that were the beginning of my ongoing Klipsch adventure, and hooked them up to that 8 gauge cable, since it had been working just fine and was ready to use.  Accordingly, I've never heard the La Scalas with more typical-sized cables, until I got the La Scala IIs and moved the old guys behind and beside the sofa to do surround duty.  At that time, they were hooked up to the 12 gauge cable that I use for the surround speakers.

 

Since the speakers' setup is so different now (going from 1000 watts per channel as 510 JubScalas to maybe 80 Wpc while powered by the AVR's surround channels of its amplifier), it's hard to compare without doing a switcheroo of the cables, which would be a pain and an expense, since the 8 gauge cable length is only 15 feet per speaker, while the surround speaker cables are over 50 feet long, because they go right around the room.

 

To an outsider, this thread must look like a group of people arguing over which is better, knee socks or ankle socks:  much ado about nothing.  In the big picture, cable size is pretty trivial, and any one person's choice has no effect on anyone else, but somehow it ends up like some kind of civil war, with the more extreme participants accusing the ones they disagree with of being deaf or delusional ("If I can't hear it, it can't be, so you must be a dum-dum who didn't pay attention in school, or maybe just someone who was dropped on his head shortly after he was born.").

 

I think most of us are old enough that we should be pretty mature by now.  We should also be able to be tolerant of other people's beliefs and concepts, even if they may seem odd to us.  Love of music and the best gear to reproduce it is why we're here.  We listen to all kinds of music, and some members' favourite music likely sounds ridiculous to other members, in many ways.  No matter.  At most, there's occasionally a bit of good-natured ribbing, and nothing more.  Can we try to be the same with trivial issues like wire diameters? 

[ClaudeJ1]

6 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

Why call people who disagree with you names??  Why revert to that ??

 

Jeff 

I Technically I didn't call you a name I just said you sounded like one. Big difference. Partial pun intended. Also VOT speakers have a nice midbass, but anemic low bass and extreme treble, so you must have done some EQ in the network, which would be an improvement over the stock network. But you still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[billybob]

See, nobody asked me, they know that I know it all and, no one can stand for a knowitall. Well, not everyone.

Next question...

[Dave A]

4 minutes ago, Islander said:

I think most of us are old enough that we should be pretty mature by now.  We should also be able to be tolerant of other people's beliefs and concepts, even if they may seem odd to us.  Love of music and the best gear to reproduce it is why we're here.  We listen to all kinds of music, and some members' favourite music likely sounds ridiculous to other members, in many ways.  No matter.  At most, there's occasionally a bit of good-natured ribbing, and nothing more.  Can we try to be the same with trivial issues like wire diameters? 

OK how about cap uf values are not as important as brand matching? Proven science is not as good as Jeff's hearing. It is better to taste your sound than measure it. What part of his rambling commentary is serious?

[oldtimer]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

knee socks or ankle socks:  much ado about nothing.

You must be joking.  No self respecting person prefers knee socks.

[Schu]

Can we just lock it up already...

[Islander]

1 hour ago, Dave A said:

OK how about cap uf values are not as important as brand matching? Proven science is not as good as Jeff's hearing. It is better to taste your sound than measure it. What part of his rambling commentary is serious?

 

Cap values are beyond my experience and expertise.  I figure the crossover designer knows his or her job far better than I do, so if I replace any caps in a crossover, the new ones would have the same values as the original ones.  So far, I've only replaced the caps in my old La Scalas, using Bob Crites's Sonicaps.

 

I don't know enough about building amplifiers to make any kind of comment on that topic, so I haven't.  All I've ever said is that bigger speaker cables allow for better dynamics, and that with the great dynamics of Heritage Series speakers, the effect will be less noticeable than with less sensitive speakers.  That's it.

[Islander]

1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

You spoke very well, but you are overlooking something of importance.   

 

I did not JUST say 8 AWG wire,  ( which will be dull sounding. )  But rather, I was very precise to say 8 AWG wire with a silver content to it, so it won't sound dull, muffle the highs. Specifically, use m22759/11.   The most reasonable and available way to get 8 AWG,  is  a  paralleled trio of 12-12-14 AWG.  While you are at it, use 57 1/4 inch increments, as multiples usually, sometimes as divisors ( 28.56 inches , 14.28 inches etc.) Hear that !!

 

Jeff 

 

Jeff, that may be your preference, and it seems like you're happy with the sound you're getting.  That's great!  Good for you.

 

I'm happy with the sound that I'm getting, with the very fine strand (805 strands of 36 gauge OFC in each direction) tin-plated copper cable, with its clear sheath over  the colour coded twisted pair of cables.  Since I've only ever hear the La Scalas (then 510 JubScalas, then 510 JubScala IIs, and now 402 JubScala IIs) with that large cable, I can't guarantee that the improved dynamics will be easy to hear.

 

It's also possible that the difference may be less obvious, or even much less obvious, with Heritage Series speakers than it is with less sensitive speakers.  Therefore, if someone claims that his Klipschorns or Cornwalls or La Scalas sound exactly the same with all sizes of speaker cable, I won't argue, because he (or she) may be correct.  I haven't tested any of those speakers with various cable sizes, so I make no claims about them.

[Islander]

1 hour ago, oldtimer said:

You must be joking.  No self respecting person prefers knee socks.

 

Even with knee-high boots?  We don't all wear Crocs.  Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[karlson3]

I know Jeff uses PSUD2 when designing tube power amplifier power supplies.   Jeff - might the approach you use with the power amp also work for tube RIAA stages with regards to low enough ripple & noise harmonics?  That might be worth some breadboarding.

 

I've heard high Z LC + multiple RC plate decoupler, floating 3 terminal regulator, simple C input, Zener referenced bipolar filter, and a MOSFET regulator in tube preamp and not sure if active regulation is really needed.  (whatever chip regulator Bruce Moore used in his C7 phono, was worse than a simple Zener referenced TIP50) Big electrolytic cans had coloration problems in one of Moore's preamps ("The New Venusian) and also with Pass A40 - similar with high DCR choke input and 12AX7 phono preamp - latter's noise was very low - which was attractive - it didn't have "hardness".

[glens]

2 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Glen,

 

 Since you were unaware of Mr. Fulton, and quoted Stereophile Magaizine, I wanted to show you that J.Gordon Holt had Bob Fulton's large speaker listed in the "A" Category of Recommended Components, Speaker CATEGORY.

 

Jeff, it did not escape my notice in that article that not only did they recommend the speakers, highly so, but that they also used them as reference when judging amplification.  Did you read page 3?  It tells how they later backed off the recommendation, and use, and why they did so.

 

I'm utterly amazed at the rating of upwards of 100 kHz with that 2" driver.  It must have had a focus as tight as that of a lazer beam!  Seems to me like a waste of resources, time, and money for something which has no benefit whatsoever to the human aural mechanism.

 

Again, I ask you if the 57-1/8" includes the leads from the final output devices and those internal to (so to speak - would have to include the crossover in that notion even if it weren't physically "inside") the loudspeaker cabinet.  If not, why not?

[Dave A]

7 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

I never looked back.  I eventually graduated.   Consider the design and quality of the 515B 15 inch  woofer and the 802D high frequency compression driver.  

 

The room gets quiet when asked that, .....unless spending  $500K and more, on Ale drivers.

 

Jeff Medwin

Jeff you seriously consider those to rival $500,000 systems and I assume beat all the Klipsch gear too? I have three Altecs on my top shelf you can buy cheap if you want to. I am certain the room gets quiet when you ask your question but not for the reason you think it does. Against my better judgement I stay here to read your "facts" and find myself fascinated with the alternate universe you present. So what did you graduate from and to?

[karlson3]

those little Peerless cone tweeters were popular back in the day - the Pyramid Met7 used one with what looked like a cigarette filter as a "phase plug" .  EV used it (or clone?) in their Interface B with a felt acoustic lens having ~3/4" diameter hole (that worked reasonably well).  I like JBL's cone tweeter but many were damaged by idiots fingers.

       A DE250 on a slotted pipe (Karlson K-tube) was nearly 20dB louder than a cheap clone of the Peerless classic. DE250 do drop like a brick past 17K.

 

515 should be nice in a Karlson.  K33E sound like toys in a K compared to Altec 421.  Karlson have low enough cone excursion to generally get by with a good 3mm one way xmax figure up to 200W.   K15 to me is preferable to FH1.  

[Marvel]

1 hour ago, karlson3 said:

I like JBL's cone tweeter but many were damaged by idiots fingers.

 

Don't remind me... 🤔

[Dave A]

2 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

I graduated first, three decades ago, from Consumer-Use audio speakers, to Professional-Use drivers and speakers used in Movie theatres, etc., possibly all day long.

 

The first graduation was to RCA movie theatre gear ( look up a MI-1428B or 1443 field coil compression drivers ( circa 1938-1942 )  or RCA double 15 inch bass horns  -" Ubangie Horns ".)  I owned four Ubangie enclosures simultaneously, because some people stack em, I didn't need to.  Take a look :

 

                                             http://www.itishifi.com/2010/04/rca-theater-bass-horn-ubangi-or-mi-9462.html

 

Finally, recently, I graduated a second time from RCA equipment to a simple two-way  ALTEC VOTT A7-8 set up, using the lovely 515B and an 802D.  But, the ALTEC required my 40 years of DIY amp building, and three years of set up, crossover re-dos, wiring, to get it to REALLY perform.  Most all of the WWW-suggested, and published  ALTEC audiophile mods I found to be flawed, in some cases badly. Now mine performs - world class. I am pleased.  But it ALL starts always with the best possible tube amp, 2 Watts.  IMHO, without STARTING with a great amp, people are lost in obtaining the best-possible audio result.  All else follows, AFTER the amp !!  I fortunately, can DIY mine.

 

I have a friend who runs ALES, a four way, and that is surely "the best " in High Efficiency.  Spent maybe 750K to get it !!  He and I run a similar amp design.

 

Jeff Medwin

Sure Jeff but you did not answer my question regarding your $500,000 speaker comment. To help you out here is what you said.

 

 

"I never looked back.  I eventually graduated.   Consider the design and quality of the 515B 15 inch  woofer and the 802D high frequency compression driver. 

The room gets quiet when asked that, .....unless spending  $500K and more, on Ale drivers.

Jeff Medwin"

 

I want to know if you really mean this and how do you justify this claim? Are you telling me your old A7 Altecs beat out every current and past Klipsch offering? You did say this you know. I am sitting here reading and re-reading your above graduation ceremony quote in complete awe.

[Alexander]

I am putting my boots on because it is getting deep!!! We all know what the placebo effect is,,,,,,if you say something enough times you can make one self believe anything.

[karlson3]

I'd imagine its difficult to evaluate a La Scala vs VOTT.  FWIW PWK seemed proud of his A447 and compared it to Khorn and a VOTT in a graph he sent to me.

 

PWK's graph of the Karlson was accurate - but spl seemed low.  I've heard from a K-guy older than myself that the Karlson gave serious competition back in the early hi-fi days.

 

 

 

[Dave A]

6 hours ago, Alexander said:

I am putting my boots on because it is getting deep!!! We all know what the placebo effect is,,,,,,if you say something enough times you can make one self believe anything.

We are WAY past boots and nearing scuba gear.

[glens]

[Dave A]

6 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

Dave, 

 

" Are you telling me your old A7 Altecs beat out every current and past Klipsch offering? You did say this you know. I am sitting here reading and re-reading your above graduation ceremony quote in complete awe. "

 

Your requested ANSWER and four REASONS follow, thanks for asking:

 

I have not heard every Klipsch in their line up, just familiar with the vintage stuff.  To answer your above question :    With my amp and wiring and crossover on them, YES - very easily.   Speakers are not so much the problem, the amps are !! 

 

My 1 or 2  Watt triode amp may not work on a typical ( maybe even a better-wired  ) Klipsch, because a three way is harder to drive, than a two way. 

 

This is the first very GOOD reason to use a two-way speaker, so you can use the world's best sounding 1 or 2 Watt amp on them. 

 

Since obtaining great amps has always been the problem, I prefer a simpler two-way speaker. 

 

I know for FOR SURE, a Klipsch Cornerhorn will have better low low bass than any 825 VOTT enclosure provides.  But for sure, DAVE, I can only stand to listen to the 15 inch 515B being ( second reason ) FRONT horn loaded, from the mid bass up, contributing output - on up to about 2 khZ perceived. ( 800 hZ passive crossover ) 

 

Using a front horn loaded Professional-Use higher quality 15 inch,  with a TIME aligned higher quality tweeter above it,  ( the third very good reason ) for the presentation, ESPECIALLY PIANO PLAY BACK, was very much like what my RCA double 15 bass horns, with the MI-1428B field coil tweeters did !! 

 

Notice my use of the term " higher quality driver ".  This is another ( fourth good ) reason Dave.  To spell it out for you, the Professional Use drivers I use and refer to you, Dave,  are higher in quality that what you are using. 

 

With practical experience in the world of Professional - Use, higher quality drivers, the ultimate home audio result, or close to it, is possible IMHO. It was not easy to obtain this, I have only recently arrived, its taken me most of my life . It all starts with the amp !!!  That dictates the rest, the wiring, the high efficiency speakers, the real fun.

 

MUCH of what we discussed, I feel, applies to Klipsch speaker users.  The one thing NEEDED for Klipsch owners, may be a good 5 Watt amp, instead of 1 or 2 Watts.  Why, because of the vintage / heritage Klipsch's three way speaker load, and crossover complexity.  I am working presently, over the last few days,  on a 5 Watt plus amp design, that has intrigued me.  Two stage, direct coupled, KILLER low DCR power supply, zero feedback, etc.  EH KT88 as the Finals tube.... not triode connected, nor ultra-non-linear. Many parts arrive tomorrow. 

 

Jeff Medwin

Hey Jeff I  REALLY LIKE your new color emphasis. So tell me Jeff, how are you doing the time aligning? Yup you got me there on the pro drivers and I wish I could use what you have some day. Did you get your practical experience with pro drivers before or after you graduated?

 

  "Notice my use of the term " higher quality driver ".  This is another ( fourth good ) reason Dave.  To spell it out for you, the Professional Use drivers I use and refer to you, Dave,  are higher in quality that what you are using. " Now I feel really bad about my drivers.