Celestion Axi2050 2" compression driver on K-402 horn and Jubilee bass bin

[MMurg]

9 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

Actually I call it an extended wide dispersion phase plug but what do I know.....🙂

 

I'm corrected a second time.  @Chief bonehead, since you designed it I'll call it what you call it.  🙂 

[LTusler]

11 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

Just on a cautionary note. Do you think the 2050's that Klipsch buys (and perhaps modifies) are same quality as the ones  that Parts Express buys? Do you think that Klipsch might require certain modifications on the 2050's when they buy them? Something to consider. 

I'm willing to bet they are the same with the exception of the addition Roy made to them for the new Jubilee application.  I trust ChrisA's testing, configuration and opinion that they are a worthwhile upgrade over the K691.  I took a leap of faith that the Jubilee's would be a good fit for me, they are, and now I will take another one with the new drivers.

[VDS]

I’ve been using the Celestion’s and find it impossible to get any output above 10khz.  I’m using Xilica to drop 800-5000hz down by about 5-10db to get to 10khz, while setting 13khz to +8db.   I see a 15khz bump but it’s down another 10-15 dB.  Do I really need to attenuate below 5000hz to -20db or more? 
measurements are 1meter from horn mouth, mic horizontal aiming right at K402 throat.

thanks, Ted

[VDS]

43 minutes ago, VDS said:

I’ve been using the Celestion’s and find it impossible to get any output above 10khz.  I’m using Xilica to drop 800-5000hz down by about 5-10db to get to 10khz, while setting 13khz to +8db.   I see a 15khz bump but it’s down another 10-15 dB.  Do I really need to attenuate below 5000hz to -20db or more? 
measurements are 1meter from horn mouth, mic horizontal aiming right at K402 throat.

thanks, Ted

Looking at Loudspeaker database’s frequency graph,  it does show 15khz down about 18db

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, VDS said:

I’ve been using the Celestion’s and find it impossible to get any output above 10khz.  I’m using Xilica to drop 800-5000hz down by about 5-10db to get to 10khz, while setting 13khz to +8db.   I see a 15khz bump but it’s down another 10-15 dB.  Do I really need to attenuate below 5000hz to -20db or more? 
measurements are 1meter from horn mouth, mic horizontal aiming right at K402 throat.

thanks, Ted

Can you forward your Xilica .xdat preset file?

 

Chris

[VDS]

34 minutes ago, VDS said:

Looking at Loudspeaker database’s frequency graph,  it does show 15khz down about 18db

I misspoke earlier, the bump at 15khz is down 40db. 

[Chris A]

Did you ever use the PEQ settings that I posted?  Note that there is ~22 dB of overall EQ that's required:

 

 

Chris

[JeffAnderlite]

On 3/5/2021 at 5:17 PM, Chris A said:

One set of plots that I didn't plot above is harmonic distortion.  I see no real differences between the TAD TD-4002 and Axi2050 drivers across their respective passbands.  Since THD is basically only showing you second harmonic distortion, in order to see the higher order (and therefore, more audible) harmonics, I have to plot those separately.  First the TAD driver on a full-up Jubilee with bass bin at 93 dB (at one metre microphone distance, crossed at ~525 Hz) :

 

 

Then the same harmonic distortion levels at 93 dB for the Axi2050 with Jubilee bass bin (crossed at 225 Hz):

 

 

Chris

Hey Chris,

 

I am about to inherit some newer 1 year old jubilees with Celestion Axi2050 drivers. I will have parasound p6 pre and a23+ for top with 500wpc peachtree amp500 for the bottom. I am getting these because my brother who had the jubes didn't want to deal with setting them up. I on the other hand am excited and willing to mess with the xilica to get it dialed in. I have never used xilica or REW but i'm pretty handy so i'm sure ill be competent once i start diving into it.  Since we put the new drivers in and i will be setting them up for the first time at my house in about 2-3 weeks i am wondering if you would be willing to send me your settings that you use with these drivers and help me with some best practices for dialing them in with my amps, gains, REW etc. 

I know you're the maestro around here with this stuff so learning from you would mean a lot and i'm sure would also help me get where i'm trying to go infinitely faster!

 

My name is Jeff Anderlite by the way. I read all these forums and love it! Please email if you would be willing to help me out! anderlitej@gmail.com

 

Thanks so much!

Jeff

Edited December 30, 2021 by JeffAnderlite

[Josh Ricci]

I may as well add my 2 cents in here as well. 

I bought the Axi2050's and some 402's at the end of 2019 and have done extensive testing / listening. 

The short version is that my subjective opinion is somewhat in between Chris A. and Bjorn's. 

 

Even with EQ to flatten and extend the HF response of the Axi2050's I would rate the treble as good but not exceptional. Not bad by any means but certainly not the best I've ever experienced. The Axi2050's engineering do get it to the upper treble octave... sort of...But make no mistake it takes a LARGE dollop of EQ to get there. With that said, what I do find exceptional is the midrange and lower treble quality. My hearing isn't what it used to be and attenuates fast beyond 15kHz these days. I can still hear 16kHz with test tones but it takes appreciable level. With that said, I put much more weight on the midband performance over the upper treble, so for me the tradeoff is worthwhile. Take that FWIW. YMMV, etc...

 

I originally intended to buy the Radian 950Be drivers but at the time these were much cheaper and the new thing so I went with the Celestion's. Curiosity about those may eventually get the best of me. 

 

 

These drivers are rugged and do seem to give more useful low end extension than most other 2" format cd's. It may be a bit over hyped depending on what you read and the application. For domestic use, where it'll never see more than a couple volts on peaks, it can run very low without any risk. For large format / HO use I'd not cross it lower than 500Hz. For my situation and type of use, which is somewhere smack in between light domestic use and heavy duty reinforcement, I wouldn't run it lower than 350-400Hz on the 402 to keep diaphragm excursion and THD in check. 

[KT88]

21 hours ago, JeffAnderlite said:

Hey Chris,

 

I am about to inherit some newer 1 year old jubilees with Celestion Axi2050 drivers. I will have parasound p6 pre and a23+ for top with 500wpc peachtree amp500 for the bottom. I am getting these because my brother who had the jubes didn't want to deal with setting them up. I on the other hand am excited and willing to mess with the xilica to get it dialed in. I have never used xilica or REW but i'm pretty handy so i'm sure ill be competent once i start diving into it.  Since we put the new drivers in and i will be setting them up for the first time at my house in about 2-3 weeks i am wondering if you would be willing to send me your settings that you use with these drivers and help me with some best practices for dialing them in with my amps, gains, REW etc. 

I know you're the maestro around here with this stuff so learning from you would mean a lot and i'm sure would also help me get where i'm trying to go infinitely faster!

 

My name is Jeff Anderlite by the way. I read all these forums and love it! Please email if you would be willing to help me out! anderlitej@gmail.com

 

Thanks so much!

Jeff

Jeff, if I am not wrong the settings Chris is using for the Celestion/K402 are directly in the post above yours.

[KT88]

On 7/24/2021 at 6:06 PM, Chris A said:

Did you ever use the PEQ settings that I posted?  Note that there is ~22 dB of overall EQ that's required:

 

 

Chris

Chris, what slope are you using, I can't find it in the picture, 24 or 48 dB?

Regarding the setting of your TAD4002/K402 that you posted on page 1 of this thread, are your settings causally based on Roy's settings or did you determine them from scratch? Are these settings (there are more PEQs than Roy's) exactly tuned to your living room or are they of a general nature? Thanks, Heinz.

[noviygera]

Chris thanks for sharing the EQ settings. I will be testing this setup in a few days.

[Racer X]

Chris has been away from the forum for some time, but when he was frequenting here, he was an invaluable wealth of information.  

[ClaudeJ1]

34 minutes ago, Racer X said:

Chris has been away from the forum for some time, but when he was frequenting here, he was an invaluable wealth of information.  

He was so prolific. Maybe he needed a vacation.

 

[Schu]

On 7/24/2021 at 7:41 AM, VDS said:

I’ve been using the Celestion’s and find it impossible to get any output above 10khz

thanks, Ted

 

 

 

I tried everything else I could for months, and nothing could compare to going back to three channel.

[Bjorn]

Here's the raw measurement of the Celestion Axi2050 in the K-402 horn at 85 cm distance. 1/24 Oct. smoothing.

 

And here's a measurement at 1m distance of AXi2050 (green) vs Radian 950BePB (red). 1/24 Oct. smoothing.

 

 

As can be seen, the Celestion AXi2050 needs more boost in the highs. Or simply lower the frequencies below to get a flat response before adding the desired shelving. It's a large driver with a 5" voice-coil.

 

While the AXi2050 does give more level in the lows, it drops quite significantly below 250 Hz in the K-402 horn. Meaning a crossover of 4th order much below 500 Hz here might not be ideal, but this is up for discussion and is best to test by listening. The Radian 950BePB is best to crossover around 600 Hz if it's a 4th order. A steeper crossover might enable a little lower crossover for both. Depending on the distortion and directivity.

[jcmusic]

On 3/17/2021 at 2:34 PM, Chris A said:

One of the interesting thoughts that came to mind when looking at the K-402/Axi2050 performance is that the Axi2050 driver basically makes full use of the K-402 horn, i.e., the K-402 begins to lose horizontal directivity below 170 Hz, and that's frequency at which the Axi2050 performance really drops off the deep end (relative to the sensitivity of the Axi2050 above 6 kHz requiring similar PEQ boost for flat SPL response, or conversely, PEQ attenuation between 170 Hz and 6 kHz for similarly flat SPL response):

 

 

What this means to Khorn owners is that the Axi2050/K-402 horn on top of a Khorn bass bin would be a very good combination.  The only remaining need would be subwoofer performance below ~25-30 Hz to achieve a full range performance at Jubilee-like sound quality levels.  The Khorn bass bin really doesn't like to go above ~230 Hz looking at its phase response, and noticing that little "dogleg" of phase response right around 230 Hz (red trace, below):

 

 

The other good thing about crossing so low with the Axi2050 and the Khorn bass bin (about 230 Hz, that is) is that it also avoids the dual mouth polar coverage issues that are exaggerated with the widely split dual-mouth Khorn bass bin (relative to the Jubilee bass bin--the KPT-KHJ-LF). 

 

So in balance, I don't believe that there would be much difference in sound quality if using the Khorn bass bin or the Jubilee bass bin under a K-402/Axi2050 high frequency horn crossing at 230 Hz.  The phase and SPL response--as well as the polar coverage angles--would be pretty close to one another.  What this means is that Jubilee-like performance is still available to Khorn owners that are willing to spring for the K-402/Axi2050 costs, and using a good DSP crossover, such as a Xilica 2040/4080 or even just a miniDSP 2x4 HD ($205).  

 

JMTC.

 

Chris

I find this very interesting and a positive sign of the direction I want to go to next!!!

[IndyHT80]

Greetings, I do not have the Jubilee but the KI-396 (3 across the front for home theater) with the K-510 horn with mumps. I am mostly satisfied with the B&C DE-75 driver (nice midrange) but have had to attenuate the breakup above 11khz quite a bit with a shelf of around 7 db which lowers the “air” details.
 

Would the Jubilee Celestion driver work well in the K-510 horn? I’d probably still want it crossed over around 1000 hz. I prefer passive crossovers for simplicity as I have limited space and patience to bother with bi-amping 3 LCRs. 
 

If the driver would work in that k-510 horn, would anyone know who could custom build the crossover network for it?

 

Thanks!

Edited May 25, 2023 by IndyHT80

[OO1]

44 minutes ago, IndyHT80 said:

 

Would the Jubilee Celestion driver work well in the K-510 horn?

  

 you would need the K-402  

[Khornukopia]

2 hours ago, IndyHT80 said:

Greetings, I do not have the Jubilee but the KI-396 (3 across the front for home theater) with the K-510 horn with mumps. I am mostly satisfied with the B&C DE-75 driver (nice midrange) but have had to attenuate the breakup above 11khz quite a bit with a shelf of around 7 db which lowers the “air” details.
 

Would the Jubilee Celestion driver work well in the K-510 horn? I’d probably still want it crossed over around 1000 hz. I prefer passive crossovers for simplicity as I have limited space and patience to bother with bi-amping 3 LCRs. 
 

If the driver would work in that k-510 horn, would anyone know who could custom build the crossover network for it?

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, the Celestion could work well on your existing horn, but I wonder if your situation might be caused by room acoustics. You mentioned using a 7db shelf filter. Can you instead try a narrow PEQ filter?