Cornwall IV's in a Great Room

[mayo]

Hello and greetings from Phoenix, AZ!  Would greatly appreciate ideas and advice for a new home build set to be completed later this year.  Many early concessions to the wife has earned me a stereo/home theater budget in the great room.  Please keep in mind the photo is from the model house.  Our (future) great room will have similar 12' ceilings (and probably those beams).  Also, the couch in the picture likely closely approximates where the main listening area will be.  

 

 

 

As much as a 5.1.4 or 5.2.2 (or some other similar iteration) would be appealing, the room will likely be a 50/50 movie/music situation and I am thinking of striking the hot iron with a 3.1 or 3.2 with these components:

• Cornwall IV’s
• Klipsch RP-504C center channel
• unknown subwoofer or two
• HiFi Rose RS150 network streamer
• Leak 130 amp

Knowing the sensitivity of the CW’s and that quality > quantity with regard to power, I was considering a Primaluna Evo 200 or 300, but I think I will be staying away from tubes for the time being.  I have looked at Leak, the Yamaha A-S1200, BasX 200/300, as well as some Cambridge/Monolith/Anthem amps. 

Amp suggestions would be greatly appreciated, but I guess the issue of center channel needs to raised first.  Will the RP-504C work well with the CW’s?  (I know many here will likely tell me to put a Heresy in the middle, but that won’t really work aesthetically with the wife (acceptance of the CW’s themselves was an act of grace).  If this center channel would work well, should I go with a three-channel amp or a stereo amp with another amp to power center and subs? 

 

I would like to eventually add some surrounds (see green boxes added to walls in photo).  Given the window restrictions on the left, was hoping for in-wall surrounds that allow the drivers to be angled down toward the listening position.  From my understanding, this would be better than having ceiling surrounds and ceiling atmos speakers.  If and when I go to a 5.x.x, I would look for something like a Denon AVR-X3600H to power the surrounds and use the pre-outs for stereo amps.

 

After much sweating over acoustics, I am taking a more laid back approach and hopeful that the front ports on the CW’s (along with a rug) will largely address any issues.  (I want great sound but am not chasing the hi-fi dragon here, so to speak.)  Absorbing first reflection on right side of the wall will be easy enough but I worry about limitations of left wall.  The wife is okay with a track system for some doubled-up velvet curtains that could run along this wall (and maybe for the back of the room—see red lines in photo).  If that works, I could build a sound absorber that could cover the window (not the sliding glass door) when the curtains are deployed.  Thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.  Would a bit of ceiling absorption be advised to make the kitchen and nook area more pleasant? 

 

I was initially going to add a 70V system throughout for background music but am likely moving away from this and just letting the CW's and some Bluetooth speakers fill out the house.  With all the capabilities of the Rose streamer, though, I might soon find myself up the attic with speaker wires in tow.  With regard to the Rose, I am kind of locked in on this quite expensive component because I know it will be a delight to my wife and kids and provide some killer functionality, all the while tickling my hi-fi sensibilities.  

 

Sorry for the long explanation and thanks for making it this far!  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  

 

Regards,

 

Mayo

[Deang]

Looks like that end of the room was made for them. 

[Shakeydeal]

That Great Room is not such a great room for an audio system. My guess is you'll get about 70% of what a system is capable of. But since half of your time will be spent watching movies, at least 50% of the time it won't matter so much.

 

Open floor plans suck for music listening. Just a sad but true fact.  Movies? Who cares? But yes, 70% of a Cornwall IV is still pretty good, but you will need a good front end to get that.

 

My suggestion is to put together an adequate system in that room for video and find a better room for music.

 

Shakey

[MeloManiac]

1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:

Open floor plans suck for music listening.

 

What is the issue/argument? Is it because there is too much space behind the listening area (the kitchen)?

[wuzzzer]

If this is a fresh build, go with a third Cornwall as a center.  The RP series sounds massively different than the Heritage series.  An exact matching LCR is always the best way to go. 

[rplace]

12 hours ago, mayo said:

HiFi Rose RS150 network streamer

 

Interesting piece of gear. Not on my radar. Concerns about the AKM chip availability? Perhaps with the house not built yet you have some time.

 

That room scares me for music. I'd at least look at $1,900 into a Sonos 5.1 movie set up, that could also be whole house background music. And explore other options for serious music in a different location. Save the wife's concession for another day.

 

https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/surround-set-arc-sub-one-sl.html

 

 

[willland]

@mayo,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Looks to be a nice room for entertainment.

 

13 hours ago, mayo said:

the Yamaha A-S1200

Excellent choice for the Cornwall IVs.  Also can be used in conjunction with an AVR with "HT Bypass" function, even though Yamaha does not call it that.

 

13 hours ago, mayo said:

Will the RP-504C work well with the CW’s?

Not ideal but probably doable because of it's horizontal orientation.

 

7 hours ago, wuzzzer said:

If this is a fresh build, go with a third Cornwall as a center. 

Definitely ideal for timbre matching but you would have to get creative in making it happen.  

 

17 minutes ago, rplace said:

That room scares me for music.

I get that the room is not perfect but in the main listening position I bet it will sound better than you might think with some added sound dampening room treatments and maybe an acoustic curtain/drapes for the sliders.

 

Bill

 

[Peter P.]

Wire the room for those side speakers BEFORE construction is complete. Even if blank outlet plates cover the wiring and you never realize your dream, at least the wiring is in place. Obviously, the same holds true for all the other electronics-including power and speaker wiring at the front of the room.

[Chris A]

Here is a picture of your model showroom:

 

 

Here is Siegfried Linkwitz's listening room: 

 

I think it could be an outstanding listening room, as shown.  For one thing, it has enough volume to avoid the issues that I see with many other listening rooms, and a high ceiling.  I think you're going to really like listening in there. That room is pretty similar in dimensions to my listening room (15.5 x 40 x 9--5500 ft³).  Having a ~6300 ft³ room and lots of lateral reflections outside a 6 feet radius of the loudspeakers will significantly increase the listening pleasure, I've found, especially in two channel mode.

 

Of course Cornwall IVs are not dipole radiators like the loudspeakers Linkwitz used (above), but the Cornwalls can be accommodated quite well by positioning them near the front wall, like you've shown, above, to take advantage of room boundary gain.  I also recommend a third Cornwall IV instead of a "horizontal array of woofers" center loudspeaker, which never really work very well (perhaps if you stand them up on end, they will behave like D'Appolito array loudspeakers.  (I would not use it horizontally, in any case.) I'd avoid that type of center loudspeaker.  I've found that having a center whose performance matches or exceeds the front (left, right) loudspeakers is not just desired--it's really a requirement.  The only reason why people seem to gravitate toward those long horizontal arrays of direct radiating woofers is because they don't really understand how important the center channel is in multichannel music and HT reproduction.  It makes a huge difference, IMHE.

 

Side surrounds would probably work much better if they weren't so high off the floor.  In fact, they could be placed at slightly above head level while sitting (about a foot or two at most), and preserve the timbre and ambience of the front loudspeakers.  Here is the ITU-R-BS-775-1 standard for surround sound showing the lateral and vertical suggestions for loudspeaker placement. I've found that it is right on, in terms of height above floor:

 

 

I've found that it is easy to set the surrounds too high.   When you listen to multichannel music albums (SACD, BD, DTS, etc.) having the surrounds emulate the fronts in terms of their placement greatly increases the impression of true surround music and HT experience.  The side surrounds can easily go in front of the 90 degree (lateral) line of the listening position(s).  In fact, their effectiveness actually increases when you do this:

 

 

 

Chris

[Shakeydeal]

I'm sure it will sound "good" in that room. But the OP won't get all the performance he paid for.

[Edgar]

I had a 28' x 19' x 9' room in a previous house. It was fantastic. I had the stereo speakers along the long wall; speakers and sofa a few feet away from the front and back walls, respectively. Experiment with placement. Theory is fine, but not a substitute for listening.

[Chris A]

To the OP: there are "experts" that abound in this subject area. The reason why I posted the information that I did is because you don't have to take my word for it--there are many sources of information that have been vetted by many people.  I trust Toole and to some degree, Linkwitz, who were fairly well calibrated on this subject.  Paul Klipsch is another that I generally trust (although a great deal of psychoacoustic research has been conducted since 1970, before which PWK wrote most of his articles).

 

I highly recommend Toole's book as a reference:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/113892136X/

 

Chris

[Bubo]

18 hours ago, mayo said:

As much as a 5.1.4 or 5.2.2 (or some other similar iteration) would be appealing, the room will likely be a 50/50 movie/music situation and I am thinking of striking the hot iron with a 3.1 or 3.2 with these components:

• Cornwall IV’s

Yes

• Klipsch RP-504C center channel

No

• unknown subwoofer or two

Yes one in front of the TV front firing, or a downfiring or just ported on the wall somewhere for slam.

• HiFi Rose RS150 network streamer

Don't know anything about it, if the DAC is in the integrated amp, why not just a laptop with a wireless keyboard connected via hdmi to the TV ? I like it.

• Leak 130 amp

Might be the best thing since sliced bread, but don't know it.

 

Yes a 50W amp is plenty, lots of good choices in this space.

 

If you think of the entire space as a speaker cabinet, and the CWs as the drivers, you have ports, and the side rooms are traps and or resonant chambers which are tuned.  I think the Altec 19 has the big chamber, little chamber design.

An open door to a resonant side chamber may be significant, something to play with.

Open doors and windows to the outside are always good.

 

It's hard to kn ow the effect reflections, or damping of the ceiling beams.

 

Glass is highly reflective as are stone and tile floors etc.

 

The only reason I have surround sound is boredom, it was an experiment. I was perfectly content with stereo. Judging by the way guests would jump during action scenes, nothing was lost.

 

My suggestion is set up a really good stereo using the CWs and stop.

 

18 hours ago, mayo said:

Amp suggestions would be greatly appreciated,

 

After much sweating over acoustics, I am taking a more laid back approach and hopeful that the front ports on the CW’s (along with a rug) will largely address any issues.  (I want great sound but am not chasing the hi-fi dragon here, so to speak.)  Absorbing first reflection on right side of the wall will be easy enough but I worry about limitations of left wall.  The wife is okay with a track system for some doubled-up velvet curtains that could run along this wall (and maybe for the back of the room—see red lines in photo).  If that works, I could build a sound absorber that could cover the window (not the sliding glass door) when the curtains are deployed.  Thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.  Would a bit of ceiling absorption be advised to make the kitchen and nook area more pleasant? 

 

Soft good, hard bad.

Some curtains that can be closed over the sliding doors are a good idea, I like the insulated curtains, rubber or foam backing seems to work well.

Thick rug in the middle of the room is a good idea.

Little platforms to get the Mids at ear level is a good idea.

Stuffed furniture is good.

18 hours ago, mayo said:

I was initially going to add a 70V system throughout for background music but am likely moving away from this and just letting the CW's and some Bluetooth speakers fill out the house.  With all the capabilities of the Rose streamer, though, I might soon find myself up the attic with speaker wires in tow.  With regard to the Rose, I am kind of locked in on this quite expensive component because I know it will be a delight to my wife and kids and provide some killer functionality, all the while tickling my hi-fi sensibilities. 

 

Or just keep it simple and put a lesser stereo in the bedroom or office and decent quality FM radios in other rooms FM the original after AM, free streaming music.....Yamaha has a nice integrated amp for $400 the 300 something with bluetooth if you feel attached to a playlist.

 

I had an extra pair of heresys so I put them in the BR, sound great with Yamaha gear. FM, TT, DVD player.

 

If you can figure out how to put an equalizer between your pre-amp and amp, I would do it and tune it by ear.

 

After all f the exercises it comes down to your ears and the way you like to hear the music. DBX and others make great EQs that are for recording studio use, if it doesn't sound good, they don't eat...the way things should be. For bucks, there are auto EQ models, but since your gear won't be moving to other venues, I would just go manual.

[Shakeydeal]

Quote

To the OP: there are "experts" that abound in this subject area.

 

I feel like that was directed at me. It all depends on what one's expectations for sound quality are. Lower them a little and you should be fine.

 

 

[BadChile]

Why not two separate systems?  One for music, one for movies.

Also having moved my Heresy III system from the short wall (where it resided for three years) to the long wall I just have to say I should have done that years ago.

 

[Chris A]

9 minutes ago, BadChile said:

Why not two separate systems?  One for music, one for movies.

I find it's not needed. In fact, a system set up for very high quality surround sound also simultaneously performs as a two-channel system.  The notion that you need different rooms and setups really hearkens back to a time when home theater systems were of lower quality and were mostly related to sound effects, and "music setups" were selected based on stereo playback (only).  The fact of the matter is that multichannel music recordings of the best kind available blow away stereo-only recordings (at least in my listening room). 

 

With typical direct radiating-type loudspeakers having poor or no directivity control (i.e., not Klipsch loudspeakers) the problem arises in trying to control the early reflections from just around these type of loudspeakers by using a lot of absorption in-room (RT₃₀ times of 0.2 seconds and below). 

 

However, using loudspeakers with better loudspeaker directivity enables the use of a lot less absorption in-room (RT₃₀ of 0.4--0.6 seconds) which also makes the room good for stereo playback.  Good stereo relies on the phantom center imaging via lateral reflections in-room to fill the "fundamental flaw of stereo" hole in the perceived response around 1.8-2.2 kHz (also see here).

 

Chris

[BadChile]

9 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I find it's not needed. In fact, a system set up for very high quality surround sound also simultaneously performs as a two-channel system.

 

Chris

 

Don't you dare tell my wife that.  It might not be needed, but sometimes it is wanted (Tube amps vs. SS, etc).  Heck, sometimes two separate two-channel systems are needed.

[Chris A]

A simple switch between amplifiers is a much better solution, acoustically.  Now if you have marital problems..that's something different altogether.

 

Think about it--you're diluting the funds that you could spend on one really good setup--on two not so good setups.

 

Chris

[Deang]

Chris is right. Yeah, don't do that.

[BadChile]

4 minutes ago, Deang said:

Chris is right. Yeah, don't do that.

Honey?  Is that you?

 

For me - my home theater system is in the basement because it is where I can send the kids to play video games/watch movies.  My two channel system is in the main living room so I can listen to music while others are watching movies.  My kids really don't need to watch movies through Heresys and a tube amp, they're perfectly fine with yard sale ($50 for the set) KG4 / KV2 / KG1 surrounds and a couple of B-stock RW-12s from the sale last summer.