How bout a Jubilee top?

[spamhead]

I don't follow much of the forum, but this thread appears to have been "all over the map".

First, this thread contains discussion that seems to walk a fine line with respect to commercialism. Fortunately there seems to have been some "self-correction" which is a positive thing.

Second, there were statements that Paul Klipsch "copied the Hartsfield", that he did not have measurement equipment "in the beginning", and that the first 10 K-horns were all different. I can positively state that Paul had no love for the Hartsfield, and that he made tape recordings of Hartsfield and Klipschorn outputs to demonstrate the differing degradations contributed by each. The Klipsch archives show clearly that Paul's earliest efforts (pre-1940) were accompanied by acquiring measurement equipment, as meager as it may have been by today's standards. He made his response curves one point at a time for years. Meager equipment seldom deters brilliant minds from getting the answers they are after. It just takes more elbow grease.

Also, after the first sucessful Klipschorn prototype (X3 woofer and X5 squawker) the next 12 woofers were identical units built for him by Baldwin Piano Company in Cincinnatti. Whether the top ends were identical or not is unclear, but we do have the records of buying 12 Western Electric 713A's at that time. The following 7 units were built in Reed's cabinet shop, and "were all different". In large measure, the differences were cosmetic. The one definite technical evolution was the connecting of the sinuses with the primary back air chamber.

Mainly trying to keep the historical record clear.

history has been proven to be a liar many times, my question is are you quoting from a biography that some one other than Paul Klipsch wrote? I am quoting from statements made by the man himself to a couple of college boys who were amazed at the speakers he had designed, maybe he was trying to instill hope and drive in my generation when asked how he did it his response was "alot of hard work making speakers that were crude things in the beginning,make one and then change it a little, we didn't have much way of testing back then, but when people smiled and elbowed each other in the ribs we knew we were going the right way", if you talked with the man and he told you different then I will assume he was trying to give me anitiative, if however you are repeating what has been repeated before... then I choose to believe what the man said, I am sure of a few things and that Paul Klipsch was no liar, so I will choose to believe what he said, you read into it what you will.

[Invidiosulus]

Will all due respect,

I can't help but think that PWK would have rather inspired you to make your own product than to sell a copy of his.

I'll build my own bass bins when the time comes.

And I'll probably hang on to my Heresy's even then.

-JPB

[JRH]

Spamhead:

"History is a liar" cannot be argued with in a general sense. I don't quote from biographies. My information is either firsthand from dialog with Paul Klipsch (as my long time employer), or from corporate documents that have his signature. And I agree that PWK was no liar. When he said "they were crude things" (a phrase I have personally heard several times), my interpretation has always been that it was relative to the current state of affairs. One of Paul's favorite sayings was a quote from somebody (I'll look it up later) that "You can't make what you can't measure, because you can't know when you've got it made". At the same time, he did rely on the human ear (his and later Bob Moers') to complete any audio evaluation.

[ZAKO]

Spaqmhead,,,, If JRH is giveing you Historical details... You can be sure its the real Kuhannh... It follows my records exactly,,,And I,m sure JRH has even more details than I,,,

[Coytee]

Perhaps Mr. Spamhead would benefit from knowing who JRH is. I presume to know and agree fully with what Maron has said. If indeed, Spamhead does not recognize who JRH is, then with due respect, I'd suggest to anyone (employee or not) when you show up with under 10 posts, there are people who might not fully grasp your background. I would wonder if this situation has befallen Spamhead (and I would presume he means no disrespect by his not knowing)

Would Mr. JRH perhaps consider revealing more of his background so the authority of the comments might be better grasped?

Also... I wonder if JRH remembers flipping me the bird at one fateful day at the Indy get together when some smart-hiney made a comment about the first time he (JRH) heard Klipschorns, it was while palying Marie Osmond. All I know is I was framed, I think Dtel said it! [:^)] The response however (one bird being flipped) has been worth many a laugh & smile since then. It was appreciated, even though....I really was framed..... [*-)] damn you Dtel... []

[spamhead]

Spamhead:

"History is a liar" cannot be argued with in a general sense. I don't quote from biographies. My information is either firsthand from dialog with Paul Klipsch (as my long time employer), or from corporate documents that have his signature. And I agree that PWK was no liar. When he said "they were crude things" (a phrase I have personally heard several times), my interpretation has always been that it was relative to the current state of affairs. One of Paul's favorite sayings was a quote from somebody (I'll look it up later) that "You can't make what you can't measure, because you can't know when you've got it made". At the same time, he did rely on the human ear (his and later Bob Moers') to complete any audio evaluation.

Sorry, but I did not say or infer that in this case history is a liar, or that you are, everyone attests to your acuracy, I respect what Mr. Hornzak says about you, maybe I am wrong when I concluded his saying to ME that they didn't have much of a way of testing them then inferred that compared to what they were doing at the time of our discussion or now how they test made that seem like not much of a way, I took it literally and if that makes me ignorant or a bad person or in need of chastisement from all of the friendly good folks here on the honorable klipsch forum so be it, but I really think remembering my discussion with the man and legend like it was yesterday I feel he would read this post and say ah come on whats all the fuss about, that is the man I remember speaking to. I just can't figure why everyone on this forum gets so neurotic and takes things as an insult or attack on Paul Klipsch, I'm not certain if I have ever met anyone with a higher respect for the man than myself! Sorry if I hit a nerve.

[spamhead]

Perhaps Mr. Spamhead would benefit from knowing who JRH is. I presume to know and agree fully with what Maron has said. If indeed, Spamhead does not recognize who JRH is, then with due respect, I'd suggest to anyone (employee or not) when you show up with under 10 posts, there are people who might not fully grasp your background. I would wonder if this situation has befallen Spamhead (and I would presume he means no disrespect by his not knowing)

Would Mr. JRH perhaps consider revealing more of his background so the authority of the comments might be better grasped?

Also... I wonder if JRH remembers flipping me the bird at one fateful day at the Indy get together when some smart-hiney made a comment about the first time he (JRH) heard Klipschorns, it was while palying Marie Osmond. All I know is I was framed, I think Dtel said it! The response however (one bird being flipped) has been worth many a laugh & smile since then. It was appreciated, even though....I really was framed..... *** you Dtel...

Coytee, maybe I would benefit from knowing who JRH is! but it would not change the fact that my conversation with The Man himself (PWK) caused me to make my own conclusions however subjective or incorrect they may be, and you are correct in that I mean him no disrespect, and the statement about this situation befalling me puzzles me, I will soon as possible make tests to try and validate to this forum that I am not ripping people off in the cabinets I have so much fun constructing wheather they are klipsch or JBL copies, I certainly don't make much financial compensation for it, not even in the same spectrum with what I am paid for building or finishing interior cabinets or woodwork and decorative mouldings. What does continue to perplex me is that so many are sticklers for testing while I agree it validates the cabinet or speaker I remember how bad tube amps and most of the mc Intosh equipment test yet they still sound good, if my ears like it and Its what I can afford and am happy does anything else really matter? I wonder if the people on this forum that have been so enraged about my attitudes about testing being the final word when they go and buy a car and someone tells them how much horsepower it has do they have to see a dyno sheet or can they just say its fast enough for me? When you test drive a cadillac do you have to take it over an obstacle course to be able to say I think it rides nice enough? When any consumer purchases anything no matter how subjective or debatable his opinion in his world does anything else really matter? It seems so many on this forum want to tell or convince others that they really aren't satisfied if it wasn't tested in a way that they agree with, and I for one simply don't buy into that philosophy. If my ears are tricking me then maybe I am perfectly satisfied in my dilusion, if I think that my 96 volvo turbo runs like a porsche and rides like a lincoln then who am I hurting? And in the final outcome I have probably found a way to be much happier in life than the others especially the cinics.

[dtel]

Also... I wonder if JRH remembers flipping me the bird at one fateful day at the Indy get together when some smart-hiney made a comment about the first time he (JRH) heard Klipschorns, it was while palying Marie Osmond. All I know is I was framed, I think Dtel said it! The response however (one bird being flipped) has been worth many a laugh & smile since then. It was appreciated, even though....I really was framed..... *** you Dtel...

I was setting right next to you BUT the bird did go in the right direction, [] Coytee we all know your love for Marie Osmond music! []

Apparently Mr JRH is not a big Osmond fan, I don't blame him, for the bird either it was funny. [Y]

[ssctrojan1980]

dtel.

I noticed your avatar pic. Is that a Grand bass cabinet? If so how does it sound?

[dtel]

MWM, singles 2 on each side. It sounds as BIG as it is but detailed and can shake a house with a couple of watts.

[DrWho]

Also... I wonder if JRH remembers flipping me
the bird at one fateful day at the Indy get together when some
smart-hiney made a comment about the first time he (JRH) heard
Klipschorns, it was while palying Marie Osmond. All I know is I was
framed, I think Dtel said it!
The response however (one bird being flipped) has been worth many a
laugh & smile since then. It was appreciated, even though....I
really was framed..... *** you Dtel...

lol, that was hilarious []

For what it's worth, you can get a rather powerful acoustic measurement rig for about $200 provided you already own a laptop.

I
also just wanted to add a quick comment that if the extent of one's
experience with measurements is marketing specs, then I would humbly
suggest gaining some more experience with real measurements before
commenting on their validity. I would also suggest that any situation
where one feels a measurement doesn't correlate to audible perception,
then you are interpreting the measurement incorrectly. In fact, that
which defines a good measurement is how it is audibly perceived...so by
definition it's impossible for something to measure bad and sound good,
or measure good and sound bad.

[spamhead]

Also... I wonder if JRH remembers flipping me the bird at one fateful day at the Indy get together when some smart-hiney made a comment about the first time he (JRH) heard Klipschorns, it was while palying Marie Osmond. All I know is I was framed, I think Dtel said it! The response however (one bird being flipped) has been worth many a laugh & smile since then. It was appreciated, even though....I really was framed..... *** you Dtel...

lol, that was hilarious

For what it's worth, you can get a rather powerful acoustic measurement rig for about $200 provided you already own a laptop.

I also just wanted to add a quick comment that if the extent of one's experience with measurements is marketing specs, then I would humbly suggest gaining some more experience with real measurements before commenting on their validity. I would also suggest that any situation where one feels a measurement doesn't correlate to audible perception, then you are interpreting the measurement incorrectly. In fact, that which defines a good measurement is how it is audibly perceived...so by definition it's impossible for something to measure bad and sound good, or measure good and sound bad.

Dr. Who, I have the laptop but cannot find the equipment on the net or am not looking in right place, can you give me brand names or some place to find this test equipment you speak of? thanks

[DrWho]

There's a "MeasureSound" link in my signature...one of these days I'll get that site more updated.

Anyways, here's a list of the gear I currently own:
http://sites.google.com/site/measuresound/gear

You only need the Behringer ECM8000 and the Tascam US-144. The other gear and pic of the roadcase are from the first version and I haven't updated the site recently.

You might also consider the Dayton EMM-6, which seems to have better parts tolerance than the Behringer.

For software, I use Room EQ Wizard:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

You'll want to check out this page on the HTS forums, which is where the formal support for REW is:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/11707-room-eq-wizard-rew-information-index-links-guides-articles-stickies-please-read.html

[Rudy81]

Room EQ Wizard is fantastic. Price is right as well.

[Marvel]

Also... I wonder if JRH remembers flipping me
the bird at one fateful day at the Indy get together when some
smart-hiney made a comment about the first time he (JRH) heard
Klipschorns, it was while palying Marie Osmond. All I know is I was
framed, I think Dtel said it!
The response however (one bird being flipped) has been worth many a
laugh & smile since then. It was appreciated, even though....I
really was framed..... *** you Dtel...

lol, that was hilarious

That was one of the funniest things I've seen, and just shows how down to earth Klipsch folks can be. That was such a great weekend!

[Coytee]

wheather they are klipsch or JBL copies

validate to this forum that I am not ripping people off in the cabinets

I certainly don't make much financial compensation for it,

Spamhead... I've not said much in this thread and probably shouldn't here as well. I think you summed much of it up right there with the primary comment from me being (regarding you saying you don't make much compensation) either does Klipsch. By that, what I'm saying is you are evidently building and selling copies of something they currently have in production. Every copy that you make and sell is one less potential sale they might have. Out of simple respect that is something I couldn't do. Having a pair of large black bemouths in my living room, I can certainly find attraction to the idea of having them more asthetic. The chance to have them more asthetic AND maybe a third of the price (or whatever the difference is) could also be a very intoxicating attraction but.... what if everyone was doing that? (everyone defined as private and commercial concerns). It wouldn't take too long before Klipsch wasn't selling any of these things and the very people who created the design would suffer.

There are some very talanted wood workers out there and I don't think these are too complex to build so I have no doubt that your units look great and most likely, sound great too... or at least, good enough that for the price (if indeed they do sound different than the real McCoy) the owners will happily take the trade off in sound. Let's face it, the Jubilee is a fantastic sounding speaker so if yours doesn't sound as good as a factory unit, you could still have great gains in the performance that any shortfalls (if any) would probably be offset by the overall improvement of the design itself.

There is a part of me that wishes I had your skills and greatly admire others like you with those skills. My real thoughts of where you are making your mistake is essentially in (pardon my word) 'flaunting' your skills and desires on the very forum of the company that created them. I think that tends to create some conflict with some people (I would also fall under this catagory) where there is a desire to stand up for something that we realize might not be legally wrong...but then again... in our gut.... we don't necessarily feel is 100% right.

[ssctrojan1980]

coyote....

in regards to your comment of selling a copy. Remember, these i'm sure are not exact to the real thing. I wonder what coke or pepsi thought when its competitors came on the market. "That darn coke tastes just like our pepsi... lol" You know i'm also kinda a big gun owner. I do my fair share of hunting. I wonder if Remington cried when S&W started making guns, or savage or glock or fnh. They all make guns, that is not fair.

You know what, i might be a some young punk in my 20's. if you ever invent something, for your sake i hope there is not another product that resembles yours or in good respect you might just have to pass on your idea and let some other schmuck with no respect do it. Cry me a river. build me a bridge, and get over it!!!

[Pete H]

The bottom line is.... What does your ear tell you. That is all that matters. Test equipment doesn't say.. hmmm, that seems a little muddy. or that midrange sounds a little hot. or wow, her voice is right at you. So again.... the bottom line is what the ear hears.

Great statement, because when the day is done, it doesn't come down to specs or readings, it comes down to what you perceive as better or more accurae which is so subjective you cant compare the experience on a forum. It's all about you!

[Pete H]

The questions are simply this -- which curves the best, has the highest sensitivity, and the lowest distortion? You could actually have a superior build quality (compared to the Jubilee), but still fall short in those areas -- there is simply no way to know without measurements. Claims of superior performance in the subjective realm only have credibility if they are backed by the objective facts. Hey, I don't like it either, but that's the way this business works.

I think that's what I said in a non technical way.

[Deang]

All hail -- Jim Hunter is in the building.

Hired by PWK, Jim is the lead Engineer for the consumer division and Klipsch historian. His library is sectioned off as follows: Top Secret, Top Top Secret, and Consumable Information with Secure Blindfold.