Subwoofer in 2 channel listening

[derrickdj1]

Infra-sonic bass is something that I did not miss when listening to music in my setup which includes four tower speakers. My wife shuffled around the furniture in our family room so I had to run the autocalibration for the system. This time I set all speakers to small and worked on slightly better sub placement. The music sounds so much more enveloping. I kown this has been discussed before. But, I was wondering how many others use subs for their 2 channel setup and yes, set large towers or some of ther Heritage speakers to small to small.

[CECAA850]

I use a sub with my Lascalas, but it's not in a multi speaker setup. TheLascalas are crossed over at 70 Hz.

[oldenough]

I use a Paradigm Servo 15 sub with my RF-5's for two channel listening, and why not? The information is there to be retrieved so why not listen to it. I don't get the "anti-sub at any cost" brigade, though I do understand some of their arguments. A sub properly set-up and integrated only adds to the experience. I also used my sub with La Scalas at one time, they really do benefit from a good sub-woofer.

[StephenM]

I also use a sub for 2 channel listening with my RF-5s. As deep as your mains might dig, a subwoofer of commesurate quality can likely dig deeper with less distortion while offering more output.

[dtel]

The information is there to be retrieved so why not listen to it. I don't get the "anti-sub at any cost" brigade, though I do understand some of their arguments. A sub properly set-up and integrated only adds to the experience. I also used my sub with La Scalas at one time, they really do benefit from a good sub-woofer

[Y] Exactly, if there wasn't any info the sub it would not make a sound but it does.

For 2 Ch I use a sub most of the time crossed at 40, I might cross a little lower but on this sub amp that's as low as it goes. Mains are set to large.

[jhoak]

I only have a 2 channel and I use a subwoofer with it. The sub is a DIY with a GR Research 12" driver and a Dayton 250w plate amp. The speakers (Chorus IIs) run full range and the I have the sub crossed over at 50Hz. It sounds very nice.

What's funny to me is that if I turn off the speakers there seems to be very little sound coming out of the subwoofer. Yet if I turn off the sub there's just something missing. I've been told that means that I have it "dialed in" pretty well. Don't know about that but it sounds great and I sure enjoy listening to it.

[StratCountry]

Hey oldenough, I'm sure you are a veteran of 2.1 channel music, in your opinion, would a sealed sub enclosure be the right direction to go for listening to music only?

[Quiet_Hollow]

But, I was wondering how many others use subs for their 2 channel setup and yes, set large towers or some of ther Heritage speakers to small to small.

Count me in.

[SWL]

Two 18" EV subs with KLF-30's. I run the 30's full range and the subs 70hz and down. For me, cutting off any low end on the 30's is taking away from their capabilities in a two-channel scenario. The subs only compliment the bass of the 30's since they can hammer very well on thier own.

Mid-bass is where it's at for two-channel listening....for the most part. [Y]

[Turbox]

Hey oldenough, I'm sure you are a veteran of 2.1 channel music, in your opinion, would a sealed sub enclosure be the right direction to go for listening to music only?

Sealed or not, its all in the design. Some are designed for ported vs none ported Vs passives Radiators. I've only ever had two subs, KSW115, and now a KPT684. I cant really compare the two, they are completely different. But, with a larger Sub, it moves more air, and i think you will be happier with that Vs a smaller sub 10 inch or 12 inch. I prefer the larger Radiator in my sub. Older Music didnt really have much LF in the track, where as newer music has lots of LF in the tracks.

I'm currently running a 2.1 with my Jubilee's and 684. Now we need to talk Direct Radiator, Vs horn loaded sub. [Y]

+1 for Subs even for 2 channel.

[tromprof]

I built a tuba table for my La Scalas and a Cinema F-20 for the K-horns, all for 2 channel (though I have recently added a mono center La Scala to the K-horns). Even with the K-horns there is a lot there, esp. in modern recordings that the sub adds. My only comment on design is I wanted a horn sub since it was being paired with three way horn speakers. They match up well enough I am unable to tell where the sub takes over unless I turn them off.

[Turbox]

They match up well enough I am unable to tell where the sub takes over unless I turn them off.

That sounds ideal. they way it should be, nice...

you know, every time i turn around, there's someone that has a Tuba sub...i going to build mine soon. i bought the plans about a year ago...and printed them today. right on top of the game here...[Y]

[Mallette]

Mid-bass is where it's at for two-channel listening....for the most part.

I cannot make sense of that. Please educate me...

Dave

[muel]

Google "mid bass frequency range" and you will see how little agreement as to what mid bass even IS. Unfortunately, I'm not one who can help much to define the terms but that would be helpful in our discussions, I think.

[derrickdj1]

Infrasonic bass: less than 20 Hz

Sub-bass: 20-60 Hz

Bass: 60-250 Hz

Mid-bass: 50-120 Hz

The xo in many home systems is in the Mid-bass range and there is a problem with the mid-bass punch in the system. In setups without bass management this is more apt to be a problem due to room modes. Good bass is highly room dependent.

[derrickdj1]

For mid-bass punch:

1. Increase 60-100 Hz gives thumb to
   drum and 1.5-3 kHz gives the slap

   
   

[Mallette]

For mid-bass punch:

That was my point. I don't want "mid bass punch" or "sizziling highs" or "rumbling bass." I want fidelity to the source. That's why we call it "high fidelity."

JMHO...

Not that some wump and thump can't be cool for a movie or party rock, but that's not critical listening.

Dave

[Dennie]

For mid-bass punch:

That was my point. I don't want "mid bass punch" or "sizziling highs" or "rumbling bass." I want fidelity to the source. That's why we call it "high fidelity."

JMHO...

Not that some wump and thump can't be cool for a movie or party rock, but that's not critical listening.

Dave

Well, you can "critically" listen to a garbage truck. But if you boost or lower certain freqs., it is no longer ACCURATE!!!

Dennie []

[Chris A]

Infrasonic bass: less than 20 Hz, Sub-bass: 20-60 Hz, Bass: 60-250 Hz, Mid-bass: 50-120 Hz

Here is a Fletcher-Munson "equal loudness" family of curves. This is where the "A" and "C" scales on your hand-held SPL meter come from. The "A" scale is used for the low-end detectability threshold of hearing below about 55 Phon, while the "C" scale is used for anything above ~85 Phons.

At very low frequencies, the output capabilities of your speakers must be very high in order for the recording/mixing/mastering engineers to equalize out the sound so that it has an "equal loudness" curve built into it. (The same thing happens on the high end to some degree, as shown above.) Each wiggly curve shown here is a trace of perceived equal loudness to human ears.

Setting your fronts to "large" and adding subs is usually the best way to go because of this - this effectively doubles the surface area of the radiating surfaces of your front speakers with your sub(s). The whole setup needs to be EQed flat, but the capability of having double the radiating surface area radiators at 25 Hz vs. 100 Hz is something that is usually beneficial. You also need a lot of SPL capability from your subs in order to achieve even moderate "equal loudness" in playing back music.

As for those that "don't miss the lf end", I find this very difficult to believe unless what you typically listen to is a lot different than what I listen to. Almost any jazz combo with string bass or electric bass will benefit from subs, as well as pipe organ recordings, symphonic music (string orchestra) and many pop/rock bands. For instance, James Taylor CDs with Jimmy "Flim" Johnson will have sub-35 Hz fundamentals in it - big time.

Missing those frequencies is missing a lot of the musical experience, IMHO. I use two horn-loaded subs: one in each corner behind my Jub bass bins. They provide the last audible octave down to 17 Hz from the Jub bass bins' nominal 31 Hz in-corner cut-off frequency. And they can put out a great deal of SPL in order to provide "equal loudness" below ~31 Hz.

Chris

[Mallette]

Well, you can "critically" listen to a garbage truck. But if you boost or lower certain freqs., it is no longer ACCURATE!!!

Fully agree. Carl has one of the best integrated subs I've ever heard. It's completely transparent and a person not looking up at the drivers up near the cieling might not ever know those brutes were there. That's how I like them for critical listening. I CAN crank the bass on a big pipe organ (and have done so after a few beers ) to where it impressively rattles the windows and makes pictures go crooked. But it isn't accurate nor does it sound like the real thing.

Dave