Guest Steven1963 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) Nico, I have often wondered the same thing and I have thought up this to help me understand it: I relate the electrical path a signal takes to our bodies circulatory system. Our blood flows from our powerplant (heart) energized and pure and full of the 'power' that our bodies need. That power travels to our brain (amplifier) and our brain runs the rest of our body. Now I don't know where in the circuit the power is filtered (liver) - before or after it goes to the brain but it doesn't matter because it is clean either way before it gets to our brains. That is all the brain needs to properly control our bodies: a good, clean power source. At that point my comparison falls apart because an audio amplifier does not change the electrical system coming to it into another form of power, but our brains change oxygen into electrical signals that it sends to the body to make it perform. But I digress. Back to the point. Many people run power filters in our audio systems as well, I think (high-end amps do this already?). And as long as we filter the power before it leaves the amp and clean it as thoroughly as we can, then in my mind, we have addressed the critical point. It's the 'garbage in, garbage out' theory. Anything we do beyond that point, I think, yields minimal results - possibly very small to measure and for 98% of the population certainly not audible. Do interconnects and speaker cables help? I think so because I can hear the difference. Does minimizing the number of connections help? Maybe, but I am skeptical, because I can't hear the difference. Somebody said something on this site (or elsewhere, maybe) that the cost-to-return benefit becomes comical when we start worrying about the micro aspects of the art. What is next? Do we start opening our audio pieces and replacing the tin and lead soldered connections with 24k gold instead? Does any amplifier manufacturer do this already? McIntosh is already very expensive. Edited July 19, 2014 by Steven1963 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) As convinced as I am about the difference in soundquality these crossovers provide, one thing puzzles me... We all buy interconnects and speakercables of high quality, connectors that do not corrode and even wall sockets and special plugs for main power. All this to minimize the losses while our music-signal is travelling form the source to the end of the chain; our loudspeakers. Nico We do?... The main difference is that one of those two examples, interconnects and cross overs, actually makes a tremendous impact... the other is smoke and mirrors. Edited July 19, 2014 by Schu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Great pic! You dont hide those in a speaker do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I shouldn't but I do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckAb3 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Great review, Steve and nice recommendation for Dean. There's something to be said for keeping it in the Forum community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Changed from the original stock response? Yes, I think so, but by how much, I don't know. Changed from what he had before he changed networks? For sure. Just throwing this out there for the tinkerers, but this kinda sounds analogous to what what I've got shown below. At reduced listening levels, the EQ settings below work quite well by my ear. Transforms the stock La Scala sound into a more B&W style, laid-back sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) @Jay, your networks are already boxed, and I didn't think to snap some pictures. Besides, they turned out ugly as hell, sorry. : )@Nico, these days, crossovers are done like most everything else, with printed circuit boards. So, all of parts are laid out, and then the leads supporting each filter section are extended with wires, which then connect to their respective driver - and then of course the inputs as well.When you do point-to-point work, you have a limited range of options, and only one of them is superior to the barrier strip - I would drive brass pins into the wood, and then solder the leads and wiring for the drivers together. There would be quite a bit more labor along with the cost of the wiring and disconnects. The wire I use is over a dollar a foot, and the panduit disconnects I use also cost over a dollar each. So, my already pricey work just got a lot pricier. You, know, I sell awesome rewiring kits. I spent over $300.00 on the crimper so I could create truly gas-tight or gas less connections. How many of these kits do you think I've sold? Zero. No one here gives a crap about the quality of their wiring between the network and the drivers, so I sure as hell am not going to add it to my networks (and the increased cost).So, I can use binding posts or the lowly barrier strip, and btw, my builds have always used the shortest path possible. Go to my website, go to the gallery, pick a network, and count the connections - it's hard to do better.A popular method is to use binding posts. Most of the implementations I've seen leave a lot to be desired. First of all, one has to wonder how much gold is in a binding post, probably just enough to provide resistance to corrosion. These things don't take solder well either, I know, because I use to do it.The leads from the parts are normally annealed tin copper. The buss wire, as well as the stranded wire I use, is also annealed tin copper. I "tin" the leads of the coils (copper) with solder, which is 63% tin. All of the small parts are tin coated, and everything ties back to a tin coated barrier strip. If you haven't changed out your stock wiring, it's annealed tin copper too. So, we have this nice tin coated happy family - why adulterate it with other metal(s).My barrier strips provide more than just a screw. Attached to each screw is a square plate. Parts attached to it are deformed by the applied pressure, which means the connections are gas-tight. The area beneath the screws is just tin plating, which makes it no different than a very short piece of wire. A good barrier strip is superior in every way compared to other methods - with the exception of directly soldering from both sides. Edited August 5, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul79 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 You do nice work Dean. Makes me want to buy some Klipsch Speakers just so I can have you do the crossovers If you haven't already, I recommend trying the Jensen Paper & Wax Ribbon Inductors. I prefer these over any of the other ribbon inductors by far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Jantzen makes a nice waxed ribbon product too, I'm using them for the small value in the tweeter filter of my own networks. Simply cost prohibitive for most when you get to something like the 2.5mH in the low pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) @Jay, your networks are aready boxed, and I didn't think to snap some pictures. Besides, they turned out ugly as hell, sorry. : ) Yeah, thats what I figured. Im ready to hear some Mundorf flavoring, then maybe on to the Jupiters this winter. Ha! Seriously, everything you build is like a shiny piece of Christmas candy..... or being at the right place at the right time. Edited July 19, 2014 by Max2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Thanks for your thoughts; I must admit I might be getting too anal about connections and such... it's good to read your opinions about this. It started after buying a point-to-point wired tube amp that sounded so much better than the previous one [which had a printed cicuit board] that I started to wonder about this. No doubt only a handfull of people can hear any real difference, if any. For me it's just one way to satisfy my "less is more" apetite... If I had received one dollar for every raised eyebrow when telling people about the difference in sound after changing to V-caps... then I would be a rich man! [ moral of the story; do what feels and sounds good for you]. Nico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I want my MTV.....no wait, that's not right; I want my Dean G networks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 The wiring thing---Then there are the old Fisher products that were factory wired like a piece of crap but sounded great. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Right, "if it touches it talks" - I've seen some horrendous soldering, but it all works. Let's not forget that the circuit itself dominates the sonic signature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 "Makes me want to buy some Klipsch Speakers ... " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Changed from the original stock response? Yes, I think so, but by how much, I don't know. Changed from what he had before he changed networks? For sure. Just throwing this out there for the tinkerers, but this kinda sounds analogous to what what I've got shown below. At reduced listening levels, the EQ settings below work quite well by my ear. Transforms the stock La Scala sound into a more B&W style, laid-back sound. LaScalaEQ.jpg Honestly I'd give up audio all together if I was force to use any type of "Active" EQ.... EDIT " Active" added just so those that walk among us don't read things in that are not present... Edited July 21, 2014 by NOSValves 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Changed from the original stock response? Yes, I think so, but by how much, I don't know. Changed from what he had before he changed networks? For sure. Just throwing this out there for the tinkerers, but this kinda sounds analogous to what what I've got shown below. At reduced listening levels, the EQ settings below work quite well by my ear. Transforms the stock La Scala sound into a more B&W style, laid-back sound. LaScalaEQ.jpg From your EQ settings, it appears you have basically smoothing the Lascala's response hump centered around 120hz, and reduced the output from 400-6k -6db like Dean is doing with his network. The tweeter reduction -3db just preference. Thanks for sharing. Dave Edited July 20, 2014 by GotHover 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Honestly I'd give up audio all together if I was force to use any type of EQ.... Every time you play a LP you are being forced to use EQ (RIAA)... Passive or Active loudspeaker crossovers are EQ networks as well.... EQing isn't the problem it's the improper use of EQing that's the problem...!!!! miketn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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