Tizman Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Modern, linear AND not driven to distortion glens: There you go. I missed “not driven to distortion”. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 7 minutes ago, Tizman said: . ODS123 has said that all “modern linear” amplifiers sound the same. Repeatedly. That may well be, but here he'd said "pretty much all" (modern, linear) sound "pretty much alike." In my book that's much different than flat-out "all sound the same." Perhaps I'm being too clinical regarding words and their usage? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 Well come on, NOT driven to distortion makes no sense. If they were driven to distortion, then what difference would it make? Driven to distortion is not the end game for casual or critical listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 10 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Modern, linear AND not driven to distortion which means some degree of care should be taken in matching amp to speakers. ..I NEVER said ALL amps sound the same. I do think it's a fair bet that pretty much any amp or AVR a newbie might buy from BEST BUY falls into the "modern and linear" category so long as it's not overdriven. Fwiw, my RF-7s below have a jagged frequency response curve that drops down below 3 Ohms a couple of times and I have found providing enough current is important and make sure the AVR is rated for 4 Ohms, because I listen at loud volumes. I have found in most cheaper AVRs they recommend not putting speakers rated less that 6 Ohms. The other thing to consider is that a 110 WPC claim by Sony isn't the same as one by Denon, at least historically. It would be nice to have Benchmark or industry standards on those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 15 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: Well come on, NOT driven to distortion makes no sense. If they were driven to distortion, then what difference would it make? Driven to distortion is not the end game for casual or critical listening. This means that one can't chose their amp blindly. If you buy a 50 watt AVR to drive 85db efficient speakers to 118 db levels from 30 ft away in a cavernous room you will be sorely disappointed. Yes, it will sound awful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 18 minutes ago, glens said: That may well be, but here he'd said "pretty much all" (modern, linear) sound "pretty much alike." In my book that's much different than flat-out "all sound the same." Perhaps I'm being too clinical regarding words and their usage? Why don’t you ask him exactly what he means? Semantics aside, his posts in this thread paint a pretty clear picture. I really want to hear how his proposed double blind test between a basic Sony receiver and his Mac amp turns out. That is what he means, by the way, by amps sounding the same. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 34 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Modern, linear AND not driven to distortion which means some degree of care should be taken in matching amp to speakers. ..I NEVER said ALL amps sound the same. I do think it's a fair bet that pretty much any amp or AVR a newbie might buy from BEST BUY falls into the "modern and linear" category so long as it's not overdriven. Lol. A modification to the original position. @ODS123 “But the audible differences made by rest of your components, including amplifier, cd player, DAC, cables/ power cords, power conditioner, etc.. are negligible...” Pretty much over and over again ad nauseam. I would go find them all, but I’ve got better things to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 6 minutes ago, Tizman said: Why don’t you ask him exactly what he means? Semantics aside, his posts in this thread paint a pretty clear picture. I really want to hear how his proposed double blind test between a basic Sony receiver and his Mac amp turns out. That is what he means, by the way, by amps sounding the same. Precisely. The statement can be put out as a person can not hear the difference (not sure how that differs from sounds the same) between amps that are linear and are not over driven. Quite simple and not accurate, other than with that test group. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 21 minutes ago, ODS123 said: This means that one can't chose their amp blindly. If you buy a 50 watt AVR to drive 85db efficient speakers to 118 db levels from 30 ft away in a cavernous room you will be sorely disappointed. Yes, it will sound awful. I am so humbled by the sagacity of all you say. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 51 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Modern, linear AND not driven to distortion which means some degree of care should be taken in matching amp to speakers. ..I NEVER said ALL amps sound the same. I do think it's a fair bet that pretty much any amp or AVR a newbie might buy from BEST BUY falls into the "modern and linear" category so long as it's not overdriven. Speaking as a self certified expert of course. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 To say that people can’t hear a difference is the same thing as saying it sounds the same. Isn’t that the point of the Richard Clark “Challenge”? Sell your McIntosh integrated to someone who will actually appreciate it. You’ve already stated multiple times that you can’t tell any difference between it and your Onkyo AVR - which I’m sure has all of the features you require. Objectivists search out and use nice gear just like the subjectivists do. What a bunch of hypocrites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 One thing someone just starting out in the hobby -- or just wanting to buy a single sound system, and never replace it -- should know is that many writers on many websites, and in many magazines, ignore fully horn loaded speakers. It's true that they are uncommon, but they should be considered. I doubt if Harmon's 360 degree field test would be applicable to corner horns, since corner horns "see" about 90 degrees, and some people use some near side wall absorption, as recommended by @Chris A. Chris, what is your take on the Harman Linear Spatial Reference Technology 360 degree test for corner horns? This is not a new "oversight." For years, audiophiles and others (CU, etc.) who advocated placing speakers away from the walls, wrote as though corner speakers didn't exist. One British home studio building book offhandedly announced that horn speakers were "highly distorted" despite the low distortion figures elsewhere (Heyser etc.). Some vendors and sites act as though large excursion is a good thing. The clearest, cleanest reproduced sound, with the tightest bass I have heard has been from fully horn loaded speakers, from the modern Klipschorn, through the old classic JBL horns used in cinema in the '50s, '60s & '70s (often using 154 series woofers, and 375/2440 mid/treble drivers, all horn loaded). I'm sure the Klipsch Jubilee would be as good, probably better, than these, but I haven't heard it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 There is an audio dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the ODS123 Zone 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 7 minutes ago, Dave A said: Comb filtering. Horns are better! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 Since I’m drinking, it might be a good time to lock down this thread - unless everyone is looking forward to watching me go completely off the rails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 21 minutes ago, Deang said: To say that people can’t hear a difference is the same thing as saying that they sound the same. Isn’t that the point of the Richard Clark “Challenge”? Sell your McIntosh integrated to someone who will actually appreciate it. You’ve already stated multiple times that you can’t tell any difference between it and your Onkyo AVR - which I’m sure has all of the features you require. Objectivists search out and use nice gear just like the subjectivists do. What a bunch of hypocrites. Dean, I got no beef with you and am not looking for one. But, come on, man. He's clearly stated many times he uses the McIntosh not for it's perceived superior sonic quality, rather for it's look, feel, and control qualities. My take on the "sound alike" bit in no way extends to include each and every aspect of expected day-to-day usage equality. I, for one, would not leave a stereo component hooked up which has poor volume control tracking between the channels. It would never get as far as "how does it sound otherwise?" Back in the later '70s when looking for my first sound system purchases, I saw first-hand how the HK 40 Watt/channel integrated handled itself in a far superior manner "balls out" to the 60 Watt/channel Technics (or equivalent Sansuage, Pioneer, etc.) and my choice was clear. Whether they actually sounded the same at 1 Watt/channel, closely power-matched &c. wasn't under consideration in the least to me. It didn't take very long to see that while differences in sound system capabilities are definitely clear, the costs involved in climbing the ladder quickly bring less and less return with each rung. And if a person isn't careful, they'll find themselves, if they're honest, not appreciating that piece of music really 10,000 times as much as if it were playing on a table radio with a 1/4 Watt amp running a 4" "full-range" driver in a plastic, rattling "enclosure." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 20 minutes ago, DizRotus said: Horns are better! Are they linear though? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 1 minute ago, glens said: Dean, I got no beef with you and am not looking for one. But, come on, man. He's clearly stated many times he uses the McIntosh not for it's perceived superior sonic quality, rather for it's look, feel, and control qualities. My take on the "sound alike" bit in no way extends to include each and every aspect of expected day-to-day usage equality. I, for one, would not leave a stereo component hooked up which has poor volume control tracking between the channels. It would never get as far as "how does it sound otherwise?" Back in the later '70s when looking for my first sound system purchases, I saw first-hand how the HK 40 Watt/channel integrated handled itself in a far superior manner "balls out" to the 60 Watt/channel Technics (or equivalent Sansuage, Pioneer, etc.) and my choice was clear. Whether they actually sounded the same at 1 Watt/channel, closely power-matched &c. wasn't under consideration in the least to me. It didn't take very long to see that while differences in sound system capabilities are definitely clear, the costs involved in climbing the ladder quickly bring less and less return with each rung. And if a person isn't careful, they'll find themselves, if they're honest, not appreciating that piece of music really 10,000 times as much as if it were playing on a table radio with a 1/4 Watt amp running a 4" "full-range" driver in a plastic, rattling "enclosure." Don't take OD seriously. He is a troll and is not here for serious discussion worth you spending your money on. He is here to prove he is the only one right. There are some worthwhile things to read in this thread but not from him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 9 minutes ago, Deang said: Since I’m drinking, it might be a good time to lock down this thread - unless everyone is looking forward to watching me go completely off the rails. why the interest in locking down the thread? ..sheesh. ..If it no longer holds your interest, then move on to something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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