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Gun safe failure - need help (resolved)

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10 hours ago, dtel said:

Is what is in the safe worth much more than the cost to open it?  I ask because if you don't open it you have to rebuy whatever is in it anyway.

The safe has ammo in it, some AR-15's, some heirloom hunting rifles passed down from his grandfather, and the Glock customized for night duty his department issued to him.

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8 hours ago, carlthess40 said:

Take a gas power chop saw to the bottom
It’s the thinnest part of the safe and the plywood down there will keep the sparks away from any Ammo. Most people put the Ammo up top anyway
Go rent the saw from a construction Rental store and tip the safe on the side and just cut the bottom out of the way.

Keep a water hose near by and keep the steel cool and so no fire starts

 

I think that is the tentative plan, based on your recommendations. 

 

He is also cross trained as a member of the city Fire Department.  He said they have the power tools to open up the safe's bottom.

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2 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

Any way to drill a hole and put a fiber optic scope in there to look around?  The ones that hook to your phone are pretty cheap.

 

Technically yes, but I'm not sure how that would help.  After you get into the safe to see the door there is a complete cover over it so you can't see the lock mechanism.  The working theory is that the solenoid is somehow jammed or electronically stuck.

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1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

 

Technically yes, but I'm not sure how that would help.  After you get into the safe to see the door there is a complete cover over it so you can't see the lock mechanism.  The working theory is that the solenoid is somehow jammed or electronically stuck.

That's the theory but is there nothing that you'd be able to see?

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8 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

They don't call that company Cannon for nothing ...

 

and therein lies the solution:

 

image.png.0f34a9d57c76cc385a89c609b415c8c3.png

 

Be sure to add up all of your time, and your son's and present it as a bill to the company in recognition of their efforts to  help you.

Do either of you have a lawyer as a friend?

There may be something to this as a legal remedy. Has been spoken on thread before about the bad PR. As a company public or private, goodwill to customers means something. Or should...

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3 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

That's the theory but is there nothing that you'd be able to see?

Remember, my theory isn't worth a hill of beans.  I have problem solving skills but I don't know anything about safes except what I've learned during this situation. 

 

If you got a camera through the back of the safe, this is what you would see from the inside, then add guns and ammo on the shelves.

 

AE5926-60-H12FEC-17-Open.jpg

 

 

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Yup...... the safe is toast. At Diebold when one of our security enclosures got locked up it got destroyed and they knew how best to open them. Torches, burning bars, carbide drill bits.... whatever it took. The idea was to cause the least damage/mess to gain access....... the enclosures were considered expendable. 

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5 hours ago, wvu80 said:

The safe has ammo in it, some AR-15's, some heirloom hunting rifles passed down from his grandfather, and the Glock customized for night duty his department issued to him.

Way over the cost of opening, in the end if nothing else works he will have no choice. if it's ok with his work with the gun I would try anything, he has the time, no rush. 

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2 minutes ago, Pinball_pw said:

Can you get in where the electric comes in on the lower back?  Looks like a week point. 

I believe that area has an electrical outlet on the inside along with a USB port and an ethernet port.  His tentative plan is to take it to the fire house and have them use carbide tipped cutting wheels to remove the bottom where the steel is the weakest. 

 

He would then remove the contents, open the safe from the inside and replace the mechanical lock with the new one.  Then weld the bottom back on and have still have a working safe.

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Mmmmm, might want to check your homeowner's insurance...  Covered or not covered since his duty weapon is involved?  Might all be covered.  Covered then cut it up if not...  Like I said early on...  C-4 ALWAYS works!

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Did anybody check further with the detail from the website

https://www.cannonsafe.com/digital-vs-mechanical-locks/

 

 

Negatives: 

  • Batteries must be changed every 6 to 12 months
  • May experience temporary lockout if batteries are allowed to die

So has Cannon explained about the "temporary lockout?"  As Cannon might say, it depends on your definition of temporary.

 

I also am highly skeptical that there are dozens of different digital locks, I'd get another one and at least try to connect it.  It would be a bit ironic if the modern safecracker only needed a new digital lock to switch for the safe they're breaking into.

 

Finally, is it possible that the handle has jammed the locking release?

 

I doubt that any of my theories are any better than Dave's, but still might be worth a try.

 

 

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14 hours ago, ksquared said:

So has Cannon explained about the "temporary lockout?"  As Cannon might say, it depends on your definition of temporary.

 

I also am highly skeptical that there are dozens of different digital locks, I'd get another one and at least try to connect it.  It would be a bit ironic if the modern safecracker only needed a new digital lock to switch for the safe they're breaking into.

 

Cannon did NOT explain the temporary lockout.

+++

 

A New Hope:  Out of desperation I just talked with tech support at SecuRam, which makes the keypad.  In five minutes she gave me the most definitive information we've gotten to date.

 

You were right @ksquared that there are NOT dozens of different locks, there are two, the old style and the new.  We are certain Scott has the old style.

 

The keypad apparently does not directly translate 123456, it uses an encryption key so people can't do what we want to do which is simply plug in a new keypad and open the lock.  They have to be matched to each other.

 

Tech support wants us to buy a $40 keypad which has some specific dip switches which will match up to the exact lock he has.  She said if it works we can then send the keypad back for a refund within 30 days and then the new lock and keypad that Cannon sent can then be installed.

 

Because their company is small they are all out at Shotshow 2019 and won't be able to ship until Monday but it seems to me a few more days waiting won't hurt anything.

 

 

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… o O (only thing that hasn't been tried???)

maybe contact the original owner that Dave's son bought it from, and see if he put something inside the keypad that doesn't have cannon gut's...

the insurance philosophy seems like a long shot, due to no fire, no weather events or floods, no theft... but maybe a little vandalism until a bored insurance claim specialist is reading google link searches some weekend and comes across the first 9 pages of this thread lol...

 

I'm all in for cutting the entire bottom off, empty it... then continue working on the keypad wires... and then when the safe is operational again, epoxy it to a 1 inch steel plate and fill it up with 2 inches of concrete to further re-seal it.. 

 

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The keypad apparently does not directly translate 123456, it uses an encryption key so people can't do what we want to do which is simply plug in a new keypad and open the lock.  They have to be matched to each other.
 
Tech support wants us to buy a $40 keypad which has some specific dip switches which will match up to the exact lock he has.  She said if it works we can then send the keypad back for a refund within 30 days and then the new lock and keypad that Cannon sent can then be installed.
 
Because their company is small they are all out at a conference and won't be able to ship until Monday but it seems to me a few more days waiting won't hurt anything.
 
 

This sounds right to me. I’m predicting success.

You might consider switching to a purely mechanical dial lock once it is open (at least I think that should be an option).
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Maybe the battery drained because of some internal flaw in the keypad.  And the flaw is still interfering with a new battery resolving the issue.

 

 Therefore . . . I don't know.  Guess it doesn't matter.

 

WMcD

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Here are a couple of safes with keypad and keys...

 

Stack-On TD-40-SB-E-S Total Defense

Steelwater Extreme Duty – 2 Hour Fire Rated – HD593024-EMP

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2 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

I've had a dial type safe for years.  Never once had an issue.

The advantage of a keypad is convenience, they are fast and easy to use.  The mechanical locks are a bit more difficult to use especially if you don't have fine motor control like a person has when they were younger.

 

I found in my research that locks actually need yearly maintenance but the mechanical locks have a life span of about 60 years.  The digital keypads obviously need battery change maybe once a year but they are known to fail every 3-5 years. 

 

The digital ones are also thought to be more secure than the ones that have key backups, but based on this experience there is ten times a better chance of being locked out of your own safe than there is of ever being robbed.

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