Covid19 redux

[Dave A]

15 hours ago, tube fanatic said:

Is it possible that the decision has been made to reduce the planet’s population now in view of the explosive growth?  That was the gist of the NSSM 200 paper.  Sadly, we will never know the truth about, or the motivations of, the current mess.  
 

 

Maynard

Yeah you know people can look at you bug eyed and hysterically jump up and down and say conspiracy nut. I remember a conversation I had with the wife of the chief Astrophysicist at Marshall Space Flight Center in the early 90's. I was in the middle of building an emulsion system for cosmic ray studies and one day in conversation she mentioned that the population would have to be controlled somehow. My question to her was who decides who is not to be here and she said I did not have to worry. I never went further with my questioning but have never forgotten there are people who think like that in positions to do just that.

[Marvel]

We have 7 people tested positive where I work. Five clients an two staff. We have protocols in place, but there was a breach that was not the fault of the company or staff.

[OO1]

13 minutes ago, Marvel said:

We have 7 people tested positive where I work. Five clients an two staff. We have protocols in place, but there was a breach that was not the fault of the company or staff.

Be careful

[Travis In Austin]

On 5/1/2020 at 8:09 PM, Bosco-d-gama said:

Since China has $$$$$$$$ surpluses like crazy why should we fund any research there, at any time - regardless of the political party in charge (which I did NOT mention on purpose)? 
 

The grant is entitled: Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence. It was approved in 2014 and renewed in 2019. 
 

Maybe they stopped funding it because now we understand that risk intimately.

Nice pivot. You did mention the previous administration by name. Even a blind pig knows the party affiliation of the prior administration as they do the current one.

 

To answer you question, we were not funding research there, we were funding research in the US relying on data collection in China. A portion of the grant was sent to a scientist in China to continue collecting data in China from bats, from people near the bat caves (for antibodies), and in that lab. 

 

More funding for another study involving that facility happened in 2017 on a different project. I can't find the status on that grant yet. The 2014 bat study was in fact extended in 2019, thanks for clarifying. 

 

I'm trying to understand the link you are suggesting between the Did either study, funded by NIH to a nonprofit in New York which has been receiving grants to study virus outbreaks from.animals.to.jumans for over twenty years. Did tjhis cause the outbreak?

 

If people are interested in the scientific implications of pulling that grant for dealing with with the current pandemic,  AND.to be prepared for future potential outbreaks, here is a pretty good overview of what virologists in US think:

 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/nih-s-axing-bat-coronavirus-grant-horrible-precedent-and-might-break-rules-critics-say#

 

“The reason our grant was renewed for 5 years is because our work is so important in helping prevent pandemics,” Daszak says. In its first 5 years, the grant produced a score of papers and advances, including genetic sequences of two bat coronaviruses that have now been used as lab tools to test the antiviral drug remdesivir, which has shown some promise as a treatment for COVID-19.

 

“I am shocked by this,” says Mark Denison, a Vanderbilt University virologist who launched the lab studies that led to remdesivir’s deployment in the current pandemic. “There is no more important research than what EcoHealth Alliance is doing. Our work on Remdesivir absolutely would not have moved forward without it.”

 

Here is the grant funding information:

 

https://taggs.hhs.gov/Detail/AwardDetail?arg_AwardNum=R01AI110964&arg_ProgOfficeCode=104

[Travis In Austin]

12 hours ago, 000 said:

Wuhan-based virologist Shi Zhengli has identified dozens of deadly SARS-like viruses in bat caves, and she warns there are more out there

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chinas-bat-woman-hunted-down-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1/

The NIH just killed the grant for her US collaborator. 

 

From that Scientific American article:

 

"Scientists have long warned that the rate of emergence of new infectious diseases is accelerating—especially in developing countries where high densities of people and animals increasingly mingle and move about. “It’s incredibly important to pinpoint the source of infection and the chain of cross-species transmission,” says disease ecologist Peter Daszak, president of EcoHealth Alliance, a New York City–based nonprofit research organization that collaborates with researchers, such as Shi, in 30 countries in Asia, Africa and the Middle East to discover new viruses in wildlife

[Travis In Austin]

18 hours ago, tube fanatic said:

“Is the US prepared to accept food rationing to help people who can’t/won’t control their population growth?”

 

”Should the US seek to change its own food consumption patterns toward more efficient uses of protein? “
 

”Are mandatory population control measures appropriate for the US and/or for others? “
 

The above from NSSM 200, 1974

 

Just throwing this out for consideration in view of what’s going on.  Please keep any comments about this general and not political.

 

 

Maynard

 

 

 

 

[314carpenter]

 

 

[Bosco-d-gama]

EcoHealth is an umbrella research group looking at the health implications of deforestation and receives 98% of its funding from federal grants which in 2018 amounted to over $15 millions. It investigates emerging diseases in a host of countries and works with the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) and its director Shi Zhengli in bat to human zoonotic diseases. Though the disease started in Wuhan in December and was reported by Chinese medical staff as transmitted from human to human early on, no information came forth from WIV until late January and was published in February. WIV’s work with both remdesivir and chloroquine resulted in WIV applying for treatment patents in China for these drugs and the question of theft of intellectual property.

 

Shi Zhengli did directly obtain NIH grant funds from EcoHealth. While the work done by WIV certainly could have and may still be quite useful it was of no practical value in this pandemic. The lab exists at the core of this infection and somehow delayed, or was delayed in identifying the viral outbreak and interrupting its advancement. Further when presented with treatment drugs WIV went to the trouble of securing commercial pathways to capitalize those treatments. This was an opportunity for WIV to shine and it stumbled at best. Though WIV claims it was not the source of the virus it cannot prove that claim and has destroyed evidence that would allow confirmation of their claims.

 

International collaborations are common. The work done is at a high level and as a collaborative effort should be transparent and relevant. This was not the case with WIV. No doubt this does not reflect on the personnel at WIV but the country where it operates. WIV is essentially an operative of the gov’t and that gov’t is authoritarian. When called on patenting the drugs WIV has said it won’t apply their patent for profit. That also remains to be seen.

 

In this instance the grant administered by EcoHealth has led to conflict of interest, a failed response, a coverup of causation and the (perhaps) inadvertent cultivation of circumstances which propagated a global pandemic. Not exactly a shiny endorsement for NIH to fulfill their funding obligations. No doubt the same peoples under different circumstances could provide crucially important advances. Again - I would aver that China itself can underwrite the work of WIV especially since China runs WIV as a puppet organization for the gain of China. Whether WIV was the actual source of covid19 will never be known thanks to this level of state secrecy and deceit.

 

Ecohealth will survive and with loads of NIH funding. It is unfortunate that EcoHealth cannot work collaboratively with groups in China. And I would hope that they pay particular attention to all of their research to make certain it remains appropriate as well.

[tube fanatic]

Here is another interesting perspective on the situation :

 

https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/must-read-covid-19-crisis-unlikely-to-end-in-the-next-few-years,-eight-distinct-mutated-strains-identified-with-different-clinical-manifestation

 

I generally prefer researching medical issues using non US  sources as there as been so much corruption exposed within the CDC and the FDA that it’s difficult for me to believe what they say.
 

 

Maynard

[Bosco-d-gama]

7 hours ago, Marvel said:

We have 7 people tested positive where I work. Five clients an two staff. We have protocols in place, but there was a breach that was not the fault of the company or staff.

Were these people symptomatic? Does your facility use body temperature screening protocols? Did they test everybody and found these 7 positive? I hope you are safe and well and remain so.

[Marvel]

1 hour ago, Bosco-d-gama said:

Were these people symptomatic? Does your facility use body temperature screening protocols? Did they test everybody and found these 7 positive? I hope you are safe and well and remain so.

 

We have 64 residential homes, operating under two different state programs. Maximum number of residents under one program is 8 clients and 4 under the other. All have been under a lockdown for some time and no visitors/family allowed allowed. Unfortunately, family are allowed, by law to take a family member home for visits and in more normal times, just outings to home, shopping, parks, etc. One of our clients was with family and appears to have contracted the virus while outside of our facility. Not sure yet about the exact timeline. I believe they returned and were asymtomatic or at least showed no symptoms for a few days.

 

They are working on contact tracing. The positive cases are being isolated at our main facility healthcare area.  It's been closed for a few weeks, and certain staff have been there for their essential work (payroll, check printing, some other staff as needed  I work in IT, so working to make sure systems are up as more people worked remotely from home.)

 

So the client returned from being with family and no symptoms, and it spread from there.

[JJkizak]

9 hours ago, Dave A said:

Yeah you know people can look at you bug eyed and hysterically jump up and down and say conspiracy nut. I remember a conversation I had with the wife of the chief Astrophysicist at Marshall Space Flight Center in the early 90's. I was in the middle of building an emulsion system for cosmic ray studies and one day in conversation she mentioned that the population would have to be controlled somehow. My question to her was who decides who is not to be here and she said I did not have to worry. I never went further with my questioning but have never forgotten there are people who think like that in positions to do just that.

 

There is always "Soylent Green" for population control.

JJK

[Dave A]

1 hour ago, JJkizak said:

 

There is always "Soylent Green" for population control.

JJK

Or there is yet another great Chinese idea. Kill the second baby and punish those who dared to dream of families.

[Dave A]

1 hour ago, Marvel said:

 

We have 64 residential homes, operating under two different state programs. Maximum number of residents under one program is 8 clients and 4 under the other. All have been under a lockdown for some time and no visitors/family allowed allowed. Unfortunately, family are allowed, by law to take a family member home for visits and in more normal times, just outings to home, shopping, parks, etc. One of our clients was with family and appears to have contracted the virus while outside of our facility. Not sure yet about the exact timeline. I believe they returned and were asymtomatic or at least showed no symptoms for a few days.

 

They are working on contact tracing. The positive cases are being isolated at our main facility healthcare area.  It's been closed for a few weeks, and certain staff have been there for their essential work (payroll, check printing, some other staff as needed  I work in IT, so working to make sure systems are up as more people worked remotely from home.)

 

So the client returned from being with family and no symptoms, and it spread from there.

How does a bad strain of flu behave in similar circumstances?

[billybob]

Always thought Austin would show in one of those charts

As being a significant population

yet, did not see them. Going to guess around 250,000 pop. as,

being a college, and a state capital city. Surely it is bigger than a one horse town...

[Marvel]

18 minutes ago, Dave A said:

How does a bad strain of flu behave in similar circumstances?

 

I believe pretty much the same. Covid-19, though, can and does in more people  become critical in a very short time. The critical thing for us is that many of out residential folks already have underlying conditions and are in an older age group, many with developmental disabilities such as Downs Syndrome.

[Dave A]

Just now, Marvel said:

 

I believe pretty much the same. Covid-19, though, can and does in more people  become critical in a very short time. The critical thing for us is that many of out residential folks already have underlying conditions and are in an older age group, many with developmental disabilities such as Downs Syndrome.

I fully understand that circumstance. I guess in the back of my mind is how many older people I know have died from pneumonia often brought on by Flu. I am sitting here and pondering how statistics are collected today and will there be a precipitous "drop" in the number of flu cases this year.

 

   My kids have said don't worry we can build you a place next to us when you get older. I would rather die at home in the country where I now live and when it is time it is time. These last few years many seem to desperately cling to with terrible quality of life just does not seem to be worth it to me.  We have do not resuscitate  papers signed and have decided we are not going to subject ourselves and family to this.

  I can't imagine the burden of having a child with Downs Syndrome.

[Jeff Matthews]

52 minutes ago, Dave A said:

We have do not resuscitate  papers signed and have decided we are not going to subject ourselves and family to this.

Keep in mind there is a difference between a "Do not Resuscitate" request and a "Directive to Physicians." (a Directive to Physicians is also called a "Living Will.")  A Directive to Physicians is your request to be denied artificial life support if you are in an irreversibly vegetative state where you cannot communicate and death is expected in the near future.  A "Do not Resuscitate" request is where if they find you passed-out and in respiratory failure, you don't want them even waking you up.  You were probably referring to a Directive to Physicians, but it would be good for you to know the difference between these two important legal documents.  "Do not Resuscitate" orders are not appropriate for reasonably healthy people who might experience a cardiac or respiratory event.  They are appropriate for people who are very near death and don't want to be revived when the lights go out.  

[Bosco-d-gama]

3 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

We have 64 residential homes, operating under two different state programs. Maximum number of residents under one program is 8 clients and 4 under the other. All have been under a lockdown for some time and no visitors/family allowed allowed. Unfortunately, family are allowed, by law to take a family member home for visits and in more normal times, just outings to home, shopping, parks, etc. One of our clients was with family and appears to have contracted the virus while outside of our facility. Not sure yet about the exact timeline. I believe they returned and were asymtomatic or at least showed no symptoms for a few days.

 

They are working on contact tracing. The positive cases are being isolated at our main facility healthcare area.  It's been closed for a few weeks, and certain staff have been there for their essential work (payroll, check printing, some other staff as needed  I work in IT, so working to make sure systems are up as more people worked remotely from home.)

 

So the client returned from being with family and no symptoms, and it spread from there.

So these are residential ‘style’ long term care programs housing those with mental limitations. That’s a tough line to walk. The in-patient residents and your system must rely on the families to enforce social distancing outside the facility. It sounds like 1 resident was returned infected and contaminated most of his coresidents in short order and some of the staff. I do hope the staff are not shared amongst the separate homes. Hope they can keep it contained. Sounds like a high risk population.

[Dave A]

3 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said:

Keep in mind there is a difference between a "Do not Resuscitate" request and a "Directive to Physicians." (a Directive to Physicians is also called a "Living Will.")  A Directive to Physicians is your request to be denied artificial life support if you are in an irreversibly vegetative state where you cannot communicate and death is expected in the near future.  A "Do not Resuscitate" request is where if they find you passed-out and in respiratory failure, you don't want them even waking you up.  You were probably referring to a Directive to Physicians, but it would be good for you to know the difference between these two important legal documents.  "Do not Resuscitate" orders are not appropriate for reasonably healthy people who might experience a cardiac or respiratory event.  They are appropriate for people who are very near death and don't want to be revived when the lights go out.  

Yes of course and in there is no hope of recovery with reasonable quality of life.