2023 Subfest (A Bonehead Class) Reports, Photos, Etc.

[JohnA]

7 hours ago, Smitty8451 said:

 

1:  What size is recommended for the La Scala AL5

2:  Are these going to be powered, and if not how will the crossover I am assuming that will be included connect.

3:  if a separate amp is required, what power is recommended.

 

i currently run 3 La Scala’s F/C/R and Forte IV’s for surrounds, but usually I just do stereo listning.  I do not plan on using these new subs for movie watching (I have Rythmik subs for that) the subs will strictly be used for stereo.

 

thank you in advance

 

(we’re do I sign up for pre-order, yeah I’m that ready)

 

The size, of the 4, should be selected by output and performance.  There is not a recommended La Scala match, but I'll pick Large.  You will not want or need additional subwoofers for any reason.  If I were you, I'd replace any direct radiator subwoofers you have with these.  They are easily special effects capable.  You will not regret it!  We were given impressive response curves and told a lot about the physics of the subs, that i won't discuss.  The Medium goes deep enough for any music, the Large should cover most LFE effects, if not all and the XL is likely brown note capable.  😆  Choose the additional subs for the max dB output you require.   They are powered, so you will not need an additional amp.  The amplifier power is surprisingly low and the embedded amp allows some control of distortion. 

 

We were not given a release date, but speculation was not before Spring/Summer '24.  You have plenty of time to try to time the Market. 

 

This is the Large.

 

[billybob]

There is an XL...

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, billybob said:

There is an XL...

Four sizes, @billybob, as advertised. From what I understand you are correct. They don't even have names yet. I believe at the class they were referred to (smallest to largest) as 1, 2, 3 and 4. (I could have that backasswards). I have yet to hear someone call them "sm, med. lg, and xl" and I think that was intentional as none of them are "small"

 

They are horn-loaded so they can't be "small" 24 x 24 x24" for example because it defeats the purpose of horn-loaded bass, which is ultra-low (non-existent) FMD and IMD). PWK's life's work, and what earned him an AES Silver Medal wasn't just low "distortion" it was the study of IMD/FMD on the subjective evaluation and preference of loudspeakers. Beers identified it in the 40's, PWK, like all things he dove into, figured out a way to better measure it, isolate it, and minimize it. 

 

I believe it's a matter of physics, these guys can talk about it more, the way to smush it down to nothing, per PWK, is to keep that cone from flapping so much. 

 

They learned all of this is in the class and I'm sure that will be reporting on this further.

 

I'm hoping we can do a repeat, mini version of this class in March in conjunction with the PWK BDay Bash. 

[JohnA]

Travis, I hope you've recovered.  We missed you.  Actually they called them Small, Medium, Large and XL, aka "big boy" by Jesse, on the graphs. 

[Travis In Austin]

Here is @Smitty8451 original question, that's appropriate here, @JohnA gave his impression (above), anyone else who went to this shindig has any thoughts? I know @mark1101 will have some thoughts and for sure Bill H as well. 

 

 

To the folks who attended the sub fest, I have a couple of questions, I’m not sure if there was an NDA for the event but it’s not a matter of if, but when I will be purchasing one if not two of these new subs, so here goes;

 

1:  What size is recommended for the La Scala AL5

2:  Are these going to be powered, and if not how will the crossover I am assuming that will be included connect.

3:  if a separate amp is required, what power is recommended.

 

i currently run 3 La Scala’s F/C/R and Forte IV’s for surrounds, but usually I just do stereo listning.  I do not plan on using these new subs for movie watching (I have Rythmik subs for that) the subs will strictly be used for stereo.

 

thank you in advance

 

(we’re do I sign up for pre-order, yeah I’m that ready)

 

Travis

[MMurg]

I finally had some time to report on SubFest.  It was another enjoyable class/demo put on by Klipsch Chief Bonehead Roy Delgado and others.  The first half day on Friday consisted of Roy talking about the idea behind the new subs based on the horn-loaded vented system first used in the KPT-1802-HLS cinema subwoofer and the Heritage Jubilee.  If you are unaware, the horn-loaded vented system is unique in that both the driver and the ports in the woofer enclosure fire into the folder horn, stacking the efficiency advantages of both vented and horn-loaded system.  He discussed what he learned from designing those products and what new things he learned designing these new subs.  There was lots of Q&A.  The others session that day was a historical look at Paul Klipsch’s quest for better bass when designing the original Klipschorn.  This was presented by Klipsch Museum curator and general fountain of knowledge of all thing Klipsch, Jim Hunter.  He went over what he found going though Paul’s letters with his “beta testers” who had the early units and reviewed what changes occurred because of those interactions.  As a final capper to the day, we went over to the Klipsch Museum to hear something that no one has heard for decades, the original Klipschorn X-3 prototype with the original X-5 HF horn actually playing music.  Museum members Iain Moore and Chris Hornbeck undertook a project over the last two years to restore it to operational condition.  They found a compatible woofer (since the original is damaged and no one wanted to risk ruining it by attempting a repair) and got the Western Electric tweeter working.  They also used Paul’s original plans for the tube amplifier that he used with the prototype and created a functional replica.  Jim demoed it for us.  While the HF only goes out to about 8 kHz, the speaker sounded surprisingly good.  That evening we had a meal of steak fajitas and BBQ chicken at the Klipsch Museum Visitors Centers, featuring Roy’s secret fajita sauce.

 

The second day was introductions to each of the four new sub models and demo sessions of each in the Klipsch lab listening room with Roy’s demo material.  There were also alternating sessions to provide an opportunity for the attendees to listen to the Heritage Jubilee after an introduction by Klipsch Heritage Brand Ambassador Mike Dyer.  In the morning we heard the two smaller subs, the “small” sub paired with the Sixes and the “medium” sub paired with the Nines.  In the afternoon we heard the two larger subs, the “large” sub and the “extra-large” sub, both paired with La Scala.  (If you are wondering why the front of La Scala top-hats are blacked out in the large and extra-large setup photos, let’s just say we got a tease of some upcoming things that we are not allowed to discuss or show at this time.  There may be another Chief Bonehead class in the spring on this topic.)

 

Here are the preliminary stats on the new sub models.  Since these are still under development, this information is obviously subject to change.  Dimensions are approximate.

Small:  21”H x 32”W x 18”D, one 8” driver with one port, 27 Hz
Medium:  26”H x 37”W x 21”D, one 8” driver with multiple ports, 24 Hz
Large:  34”H x 42”W x 28”D, one 12” driver with multiple ports, 18 Hz
Extra-large:  47”H x 45”W x 30”D, two 12” drivers with multiple ports, 14-15 Hz

 

These are all active subs with DSP amps.  There are plate amps built into the cabinet on the smaller three models.  The extra-large may have the amp in a separate chassis.

 

I guess at this point I imagine you are wondering, how do they sound?  Well, in a word, excellent.  These subs don’t sound like the usual direct radiator subs.  They have a clean, ultra-low distortion sound that’s similar to what I hear from the Heritage Jubilee bass bin.  Obviously, as they get bigger, they get better and are capable of more output and deeper low extension.  They definitely dig down to the lower frequency limits listed above with ease.  The only time I heard anything I didn’t like was during the small sub demo.  There were points where I thought the demo setup seemed to “struggle” on the challenging parts.  Whether this was the sub itself, the Sixes running out of gas on the peaks, the demo volume just too high for this setup, or something else, I can’t say.  I would have liked to have heard the small sub with more capable mains so that there wouldn’t be any question.  Other than that, I can highly recommend these subs.  The large or extra-large sub would be a great match for La Scala or Klipschorn.  These will be great additions to the Heritage line.

 

There is no information on pricing at this point.  Availability was discussed as maybe “spring”.  However, given what happened with the Heritage Jubilee between the estimated dates and when they actually shipped, my guess would be that it will be longer than that.

 

Thanks to everyone who helped make this class possible.  Another great event.

(Edit.  I uploaded the pictures in a chronological order, but when I hit submit it shuffled them up.  Anyone know how to prevent this?)

 

[Travis In Austin]

29 minutes ago, JohnA said:

Travis, I hope you've recovered.  We missed you.  Actually they called them Small, Medium, Large and XL, aka "big boy" by Jesse, on the graphs. 

Thank YOU! 

 

I'm on the mend, terribly disappointed I missed it, and Roy's BBQ/fajitas. Mostly was looking forward to seeing people face to face I hadn't seen in a while. 

 

I'm really glad you got to make it and enjoyed it. Looking forward to hearing more about it in here, and seeing what we can see, even if it is Roy flipping meats that were soaked in his secret marinade. 

[Bill W.]

John covered this very well I think, including the rationale of sensitivity match with the mains in a system. Describing the performance as impressive doesn’t begin to cover these!

[Travis In Austin]

8 minutes ago, Bill W. said:

John covered this very well I think, including the rationale of sensitivity match with the mains in a system. Describing the performance as impressive doesn’t begin to cover these!

Do they come in marine-grade plywood?

[Travis In Austin]

My gosh, the backyard area and stage look like a whole new property. And the stage has corners. 

 

Guess will be pissing off the neighbors on a regular basis (Clinton Birthplace Home National Historic Site, run by the National Park Service (do they still carry guns?). 

 

Travis

[Bill W.]

13 minutes ago, Travis In Austin said:

Do they come in marine-grade plywood?

Don’t get Roy started on that, you know better!

[babadono]

@MMurg Thank you for your thoughts/Impressions and the Pictures

[JohnA]

Roy used a Tool (!!??!! 😱) track in the demo.  It was complex, crowded and toolish.  All of the subs did a fine job of separating plucks, kicks, thumps and whacks.  The system really stood out when the La Scalas slid in as all the bass was horn loaded.  They do not sound like subwoofers, none of them.  You can almost always tell there is a DR subwoofer in a system by "that sound" what ever it is.  

 

These guys have balls!   

[nickyboy6100]

30 minutes ago, JohnA said:

Roy used a Tool (!!??!! 😱) track in the demo.  It was complex, crowded and toolish.  All of the subs did a fine job of separating plucks, kicks, thumps and whacks.  The system really stood out when the La Scalas slid in as all the bass was horn loaded.  They do not sound like subwoofers, none of them.  You can almost always tell there is a DR subwoofer in a system by "that sound" what ever it is.  

 

These guys have balls!   

Do they sound similar to other horn loaded subs like the tuba subs or are they a whole new level?

[JohnA]

The capability of the X-3/X-5 with a field-coil WE-555 treble unit was quite the surprise.  We have better, now, but late-40s audio was in fact good.  It was good to be a Fairchild!  I'd guess from 100 to 6000 Hz, we don't have better, but Mr. Paul worked on the extremes until the Mighty Klipschorn became and it's still with us.  I enjoyed it like seeing an old Packard or Ford still on the road!   

[Bill W.]

1 minute ago, nickyboy6100 said:

Do the sound similar to other horn loaded subs like the tuba subs or are they a whole new level?

Whole new level

[JohnA]

2 minutes ago, nickyboy6100 said:

Do the sound similar to other horn loaded subs like the tuba subs or are they a whole new level?

 

I don't know and Coytee wasn't there for a comparison.  I know he has one. 

[mikebse2a3]

Really appreciate everyone taking the time to post their pictures and impressions..!!!

 

Thanks,

miketn 👍🙂

[seti]

2 hours ago, MMurg said:

As a final capper to the day, we went over to the Klipsch Museum to hear something that no one has heard for decades, the original Klipschorn X-3 prototype with the original X-5 HF horn actually playing music.  Museum members Iain Moore and Chris Hornbeck undertook a project over the last two years to restore it to operational condition.  They found a compatible woofer (since the original is damaged and no one wanted to risk ruining it by attempting a repair) and got the Westinghouse tweeter working.  They also used Paul’s original plans for the tube amplifier that he used with the prototype and created a functional replica.  Jim demoed it for us.  While the HF only goes out to about 8 kHz, the speaker sounded surprisingly good. 

 

Thanks for the kind words. Jim Hunter got the #1 Khorn operational. I just bought a woofer off of ebay which we aren't sure is optimal but appears to have worked. Lucky us. The museum still had some PWK Western Electric 555s left so Jim had to make a stand so the weight of the driver didn't hurt the horn. This also required a field coil supply of about 7 volts @ 1.5 amps. Then it was ready to roll.

 

This all started when Jim and someone found an amplifier carcass in the basement. The original idea was to do a delicate restoration but this amp wasn't safe by any modern standards.  This thing ran just under 400v across the room to the speaker. This is when I noticed the gain goes to 11 so eat your heart out spinal tap. Then we found late 1940's articles that mentioned his Push Pull 6a5g / 2a3 amplifier with integrated electronic crossover. This was the amplifier parts we had on hand. I didn't feel right changing the artifact.  We decided to leave the amp as an artifact in the museum and build something from scratch based on the artifact, schematic, and the articles PWK left for us. This was a group effort I just paid for stuff and was the solder monkey 8-) . Dave Slagle of intact audio helped figure out all the custom iron for the electronic crossover. Not only did Dave figure it out and wind the parts but he donated them to the museum. This project would never have worked without so much help and expertise from Jim, Chris, and Dave... BTW the tubes in this amp were PWK's and were in the original they still tested good so we used em... I hope PWK would be ok with some of the liberties we took.

 

Oh BTW this is a 5 Watt amplifier.

 

Some parts are different just because we had better parts available. This is what started it all.

 

Here is the artifact...

 

[Smitty8451]

Thanks to all you folks for the information, it’s got me pretty excited about the forthcoming subs and the knowledge and your shared experience at sub fest have answered most of my questions.  I will definitely buying one if not two of the “large” subs (gotta find a wall stretcher first) 😁.  I’m hoping when the time comes I can have Mr. Delgado sign my subs like he did my Scala’s.

 

Thanks to you all again