Cosmic_surfer Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Let me start by saying, as many of you know, I am relatively new to home theatre and component theatre systems in general. I hadn't even done boxed theatre systems. I have learned a lot since I purchased my klipsch speakers, and have slowly been adding to my reference fleet with my klipsch rsx speakers (can never have enough, they seem perfect for small room application and are just so slick). Upon purchasing my rf-7 setup, a friend of mine promptly got hooked into the audiophile craze and took off. Got himself some vintage short horns as well as some bose 901 (yuck). He has been crazed and has devoured information at an exponential rate that I don't seem to grasp. He tells me that if I want my system to sound good, I absolutely need a preamp and power amp vs a receiver. To my understanding, the power amp would replace the receiver where straight power would go, but the thought of a preamp is eluding me. What do these components do that a receiver like the denon x4000 will not? What am I missing? Please keep in mind my setup is a 7.1 setup, so when preamps state they are 2 channel to my understanding those would only be beefing my main left and right speaker... I dont know im lost... Please educate this layman! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 You came to the right place, ill give your question 6 or 8 hours, the experts reside here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Keep in mind with an AVR like the Denon X4000, that has pre-outs (feeds for external amps), you can power some or all speakers with external amps. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydrama Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 but the thought of a preamp is eluding me. What do these components do that a receiver like the denon x4000 will not? What am I missing? I often wondered this same thing, so I too would be interested in hearing an answer. I'm looking at adding an external Amp as well, for my H/K avr354 has pre-outs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 He tells me that if I want my system to sound good, I absolutely need a preamp and power amp vs a receiver. To my understanding, the power amp would replace the receiver where straight power would go, but the thought of a preamp is eluding me. What do these components do that a receiver like the denon x4000 will not? What am I missing? In theory, your friend is correct. In your situation, assuming you have the Denon X4000, your system if it's primary use is HT over 2-channel music, should sound wonderful as is. If your room is on the large side and don't feel like the sound is filling the room, you could add a quality outboard amp to offer more headroom. Some mfr's flagship receivers(Onkyo/Integra for example) have all the bells and whistles and better components as their dedicated preamp/processors, plus onboard amplification. Adding an amplifier to one of these receivers is in essense the same as a pre/pro. Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Use the pre outs into power amps, the gain in quality will be huge. That would take the load off the power supply of the AVR so it can operate to its max ability. I have a Yamaha AVR feeding 2 ob power amps and the AVR only drives the center and the backs. I have had other members from the forum over who have pretty darn good setups themselves and they commented on the improvement of quality over a AVR alone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Besides the power supply improvement as mentioned above, buying a preamp (known as pre/pro or pre-amplifier / processor in HT lingo) will payoff in the future as features change and audio CODECs evolve. When you next 'up-grade' you do not pay for the amplification again. If you already have a decent receiver buy the amplification and use the pre-outs, if not buy a combo. Pre/pro typically have a better 2 channel section than AVRs but for my taste neither touches a dedicated 2 channel set up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Use the pre outs into power amps, the gain in quality will be huge. That would take the load off the power supply of the AVR so it can operate to its max ability. I have a Yamaha AVR feeding 2 ob power amps and the AVR only drives the center and the backs. I have had other members from the forum over who have pretty darn good setups themselves and they commented on the improvement of quality over a AVR alone. Cal, long time no hear, how is the better half ? you hangin in there pal ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 The preamp will be the brains of the system and the amp will be the muscle. Audiophiles like separates. I favor the avr power amp combo. Features chang to often and a preamp can be quickly ot of date. Good avr's can offer you the best of both worlds and you will not need a preamp or power amp. It comes down to what signature look you want for your system and available room for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Some great info so far. My take is that an avr will work good. A power amp/pre (or avr as pre) will work great. Its an upgrade but not somthing you need to have good sound. Im sure your system sounds really good as is. My advise is to get a nice 3 or 5ch used amp. At this point you will always be thinking what if. So you might as well find out 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Pice/performance wise how is the Emotiva preamps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) He tells me that if I want my system to sound good, I absolutely need a preamp and power amp vs a receiver. To my understanding, the power amp would replace the receiver where straight power would go, but the thought of a preamp is eluding me. What do these components do that a receiver like the denon x4000 will not? What am I missing? Please keep in mind my setup is a 7.1 setup, so when preamps state they are 2 channel to my understanding those would only be beefing my main left and right speaker... I dont know im lost... Please educate this layman! He is probably referring to preamps that have more than 2 channels, called AV preamp/processors. Mine has 7.1, but I'm only using 5.1. I use separate power amps. As others have pointed out, another option is to go out of the pre-outs of most AVRs, and into high quality power amps. Why use separate power amps? The power amps that are contained in AVRs are sometimes deceptively rated as to real power output when all channels are operating. With 5 to 7 channels running, they may put out 70 to 80% of their rated power (conceivably less, in some cases) into each channel. This is often mentioned in the Test Results section of magazine reviews. I know that 50% of rated power is only 3 dB down, but I still feel nervous. I use three separate 2 channel amps, that I happened to have already, for a total of 5 channels being used, and 1 unused spare. Naturally the subwoofer has its own built-in amp. I use the same system for "2" channel, but actually never use just 2 channels anymore, even with music; for 2 channel recordings, I use my preamp/processor's MULTI CH STEREO setting, and go through the separate power amps to feed three channels across the front, in what Paul Klipsch used to call "Wide Stage Stereo." For multichannel SACDs, (often 5.1 music-only disks) I use the surrounds as well. Even if you use, say, a 7 channel separate power amp, be sure to check magazine or online reviews that look at whether you are getting the full advertized power, into all speakers, at a low measured distortion level, with all channels operating. Now this is weird, I know, but I follow McIntosh's advice and turn on the power amps first (2 channels at a time, in my case), then a bit later turn on all other components, with the projector last. If the room lights dim when you turn on the power amps (or anything else), that's bad news -- or at least so I hear. The "golden ears" tell us that the wall plug should be part of at least a 20 amp circuit, not a 15 amp lamp circuit like you may find in older houses. It's best to have no large appliances on the same circuit, or even on the same leg, unless you make sure they are off before powering up. We could obsess about any number of other things, but far be it from us. Edited June 2, 2014 by Garyrc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coleman Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I have been using a Denon 3312 with 125 w/ch. Bench tests say 123 with 2 channels and around 80 with 5 channels running and 77 with 7 channels. It has done great with my current setup and I have no complaints. I will be picking up Ref's RF7II's here in a month so I too will need an external amp to get the most out of them. I'm sure the 3312 will be just fine until I pick up a nice used 3 or 5 channel amp. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I have gone from SC-35 to Emotiva XPA-5 and back to a receiver. As much as I tried to talk myself into keeping the Emotiva, I couldn't justify it. The Pioneer drove my Klipsch speakers just as good because it used high quality I.C.E. Amps. If you buy a high quality modern receiver, I do not think you will need a separate amp. I do agree with some here though, buying a amp will reduce how much you have to spend to upgrade to new technology. The Denon X4000 should have no problems driving your speakers to ear bleeding levels. There are a bunch of threads over on AVS that take on this argument and the receivers appear to be taking the lead. Some die hard amp guys are going down fighting though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I have been using a Denon 3312 with 125 w/ch. Bench tests say 123 with 2 channels and around 80 with 5 channels running and 77 with 7 channels. It has done great with my current setup and I have no complaints. I will be picking up Ref's RF7II's here in a month so I too will need an external amp to get the most out of them. I'm sure the 3312 will be just fine until I pick up a nice used 3 or 5 channel amp. My 3312 will drive my LS to ear bleed levels; but, if I had RF-7II, because of the impedance dips, I'd want an external amp, or, at least an AVR designed to drive lower impedance speakers, such as the Denon 4520...YMMV. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) I say get rid of it all and get away while you still can, and where the heck is Lincoln Nebraska. Probably a bunch of so called cornhuskers out that away, you know folks who husk corn. Edited June 3, 2014 by duder1982 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted June 3, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 3, 2014 I say get rid of it all and get away while you still can, and where the heck is Lincoln Nebraska. Probably a bunch of so called cornhuskers out that away, you know folks who husk corn. If he is here it's to late already. Nebraska is up there in the North somewhere, as soon as it defrost we could probably find it ? You would have a better chance of finding it than me I would think because I have never been that far North, once to indy is as far North as I have ever been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted June 3, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 3, 2014 Here is my 2cents (which is worth 1/3 of that in this economy). Do you "need" separates? No. But then again, we wouldn't be in this forum if we "needed" anything now would we. Receiver: Great bang for your buck and can sound great in a 5.1 setup. At 7.1, many receivers start to really struggle because although the Mfr claims it to be say 130 x 7, it's more like 55 x 7 (learned from my own experience). Separates: Better separation of musical instruments as well as better separation for HT. More detailed, better bass (even at lower volume), can crank it up to ear bleeding levels without distortion or risk of clipping, plenty of headroom for impedance dips and transient peaks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic_surfer Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Yup, this is husker country. But I will let you in on a little secret, I am not a fan of any sports in the least. I prefer my movies and videogames to have plot. Never understood the modern battlefield that pits 2 armies against eachother with "rules"... In war there are no rules... I digress. I have learned a lot here. So doing a component setup would be smart as it would allow me to upgrade the preamp/processor when new tech became available, all while keeping the muscle that i prize relevent. I see people being fans of emotiva, is that a place I should focus some attention, or do you folks have better suggestions? What are some good 7.1-9.2 power amps out there? Any good preamp/power amps that seem to be "mated pairs"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted June 3, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 3, 2014 I've owned Parasound HCA2205a (220 x 5), B&K 200.5 (200 x 5) and now the Sherbourn 72100a (200 x 7) and all 3 are top quality, rock solid performers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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