Youthman's First Heritage Speakers...the LaScalas

[willland]

I have a friend that has an Onkyo TX-NR1008 for sale that I could probably buy pretty cheap. It doesn't have Audessey XT but it does have Audessey MultEQ. Is that good?

Michael,

I would not go lower than MultEQ XT if it was me. My Onkyo TX-SR705 from 2007 has XT.

Bill

Edited April 29, 2014 by willland

[NBPK402]

Have you considered just doing the whole wall as a AT screen, and then get some black AT material to mask to whatever size you like the best? We are doing this on our setup so it will be the last screen we need to ever buy.

As far as the AVR... Why not go with a lower end AVR that has the latest Audyssey and pre outs... Then you can just plug your amp in?

Edited April 29, 2014 by ellisr63

[MichaelandKlipsch]

I don't know why your hesitant either you have a.) the room, b.) two of the 3 lascalas already with a 3rd located and reedy to be brought to you in may, c.) already know the big screen and sound is desirable, d.) a plethora of klipsch. Nuts backing you up, e.) have plenty of friends I.e. wakejunkie to help you with the construction.... What comes after e? O yeah f.) a family that will enjoy a bigger screen and sound when finished with next to no cost if you sell your sons rf7s and or your 83s. I'm out of letters I can remember.

[MichaelandKlipsch]

I thought on it a little and went bam to the thx theater and then from the 115 to the 132 and when I look back I'm a happy to be ambitious. seem you will be too mike.

[Youthman]

Thx Bill. I'm not that familiar with the differences between the Audyssey versions. I just googled it. Looks like MultEQ is at the bottom. Might not be any improvement over my HK AVR3600.

Have you considered just doing the whole wall as a AT screen,

Probably not the entire wall but I do see what you mean. Make one screen that will allow you to go larger in the future as you upgrade projector.

As far as the AVR... Why not go with a lower end AVR that has the latest Audyssey and pre outs... Then you can just plug your amp in?

I would need some advice on these as I am not current on what's available in the AVR Market.

[MichaelandKlipsch]

One of the good things about this project would be it is one wall. hear me out. You alrady have your theater done. Your seats, surrounds, av equipment, wall painted acoustics done etc. you would only have to work on the front wall and it be a focused project rather than having to encompass the whole room. you already have the hard part ot of the way. Its just a matter of the type of screen material, the size and constructing the wall to hold 3 lascalas angled properly and your there. I know you are OCD like me and there won’t even be much mess mate as it is only in the front of the theater. The whole time you can know you will have a larger screen to watch your favorite films on and the sound to boot! I say pick up the extra lascala from Billy and plan out your materials in the next few weeks before its go time. if you went from a 103” elite to a Seymore or AT screen at 132” the wow factor will return I assure you.

[Youthman]

d.) a plethora of klipsch. Nuts backing you up

I think this one is what worries me the most. Haha

Next to no cost if you sell your sons rf7s and or your 83s.

I have a local gentleman who said he is ready to come today to buy my 83's / 64. He has the RF-3 currently and keeps asking me when he can come pick them up. All he's waiting for is the green light from me.

I wouldn't sell both the RF-7 and the RF-83....it would be one or the other. I would keep the RC-64ii regardless of which pair I sold. My son loves the black RF-7's for their sound and also because they match his room better (black cabinet and TV). He loves the RF-83's but they don't match his room and since when he moves out, he will get to keep them, he would rather have the RF-7's so I will likely sell the RF-83 / RC-64.....just gotta be brave and make a final decision. I guess what makes it the most difficult is t's just hard letting go of speakers you have had practically throughout my entire Klipsch journey.

[Rhetor]

d.) a plethora of klipsch. Nuts backing you up

I think this one is what worries me the most. Haha

Next to no cost if you sell your sons rf7s and or your 83s.

I have a local gentleman who said he is ready to come today to buy my 83's / 64. He has the RF-3 currently and keeps asking me when he can come pick them up. All he's waiting for is the green light from me.

I wouldn't sell both the RF-7 and the RF-83....it would be one or the other. I would keep the RC-64ii regardless of which pair I sold. My son loves the black RF-7's for their sound and also because they match his room better (black cabinet and TV). He loves the RF-83's but they don't match his room and since when he moves out, he will get to keep them, he would rather have the RF-7's so I will likely sell the RF-83 / RC-64.....just gotta be brave and make a final decision. I guess what makes it the most difficult is t's just hard letting go of speakers you have had practically throughout my entire Klipsch journey.

Yup . . . the problem, Bro, is not going to an all Hertage HT, it is separation anxiety from you beloved Klipsch babies, setting them free to find their own way out into a crazy sound world! The first vintage Klipsch I ever had was a best up, but sonically perfected, pair of KG2s. Never was able to let go, even after three Heritage setups in the house, until the wife said, "You cannot buy another speaker until that badly painted black pair of KG2s leaves the premises! I refuse to be the target of a special episode of 'Horders' focused on Klipsch speakers!"

BTW . . . check out the Denon 4520 (or it's nearly identical predecessor the 4311). I use the 4311 in my 11 channel a heritage HT, and run my K-horn fronts on a separate amp from the preouts . . . Not only is the sound amazing, but the audio and video processing shines. I am also an Airplay nut . . . seamless. More bells and whistles than I can even remotely understand. Does more than I could ever imagine.

Now, back to letting some beloved speakers go . . . to make room in the stable . . . let your lovely wife decide . . . that will take all of 5 seconds! ;-)

[NBPK402]

This is what i found for you... (I only looked at the Audyssey models, hopefully this is not a forum violation by listing prices).

Marantz SR5008 has 7.2 pre outs.... Audyssey MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume MSRP $899 Refurb $549

Marantz SR6008 has 7.2 pre outs.... Audyssey MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume MSRP $1199 Refurb $699

Marantz SR7007 has 7.2 pre outs... Audyssey MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume MSRP $1799 Refurb $849

Marantz SR7008 has 11.2 pre outs... Audyssey MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume MSRP $1999 Refurb $1199

Onkyo TX929 has 9.2 pre outs... Audyssey MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume MSRP $1399 Refurb $777

Denon X4000 has 11.2 pre outs... Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and SubEQ HT MSRP $1299 Refurb $888 AVS BNIB about $925

Edited April 29, 2014 by ellisr63

[dtel]

I'm not sure why but why am I hesitating on this? I know I'm often indecisive at times and I tend to over analyze things and over plan and over think things.....maybe because this isn't a small upgrade. Going to 3 LaScalas is going to be a big undertaking (although it would be fun).

Nothing wrong with over analyzing with things like this, you will run across things and make adjustments now instead of halfway through, much easier.

And yes this is a huge upgrade (imo), plan it out and do it right from the beginning, it's always cheaper in the end like that.

As far as a new receiver, as always no rush yours is very capable and you will always run across deals to try out, your Youthman.

[dtel]

it is separation anxiety from you beloved Klipsch babies, setting them free to find their own way out into a crazy sound world!

That's funny and true, I have yet to be able to let any go. But when you hear the new ones across the front, it will get much easier to release them into the wild.

[Marvel]

The first vintage Klipsch I ever had was a best up, but sonically perfected, pair of KG2s. Never was able to let go, even after three Heritage setups in the house, until the wife said, "You cannot buy another speaker until that badly painted black pair of KG2s leaves the premises! I refuse to be the target of a special episode of 'Horders' focused on Klipsch speakers!"

Ahhh! Billy dropped into the deep end fast...

Bruce

[Rhetor]

The first vintage Klipsch I ever had was a best up, but sonically perfected, pair of KG2s. Never was able to let go, even after three Heritage setups in the house, until the wife said, "You cannot buy another speaker until that badly painted black pair of KG2s leaves the premises! I refuse to be the target of a special episode of 'Horders' focused on Klipsch speakers!"

Ahhh! Billy dropped into the deep end fast...

Bruce

Yes, my friend, Bruce . . . I did, following you into the Heritage pool! ;-)

Someone should tell Youthman to bring his "swimmies" . . . mine are now tractor tire inner tubes!

[willland]

I guess what makes it the most difficult is t's just hard letting go of speakers you have had practically throughout my entire Klipsch journey.

I know what you mean bro. I would do everything possible to keep my cherry RF-63's even if I bought your cherry RF-83's.

Bill

[garyrc]

You won't be sorry, 3 across the front sounds amazing, I only heard it once but it was impressive.

I'm not sure why but why am I hesitating on this? I know I'm often indecisive at times and I tend to over analyze things and over plan and over think things.....maybe because this isn't a small upgrade. Going to 3 LaScalas is going to be a big undertaking (although it would be fun).

If you go with a AT screen most of your problems will be solved...

I love the idea of having an AT screen. I'll likely make it out of spandex like WakeJunkie did with his. His screen looks amazing. I will compare pricing between Spandex and Seymour AT Fabric.

We are so happy we got a large AT screen.

How large is your room and what size screen did you end up with? If you had to do it again, would you go bigger, smaller or keep it the same?

It works great.

Somehow I can help but think you are being a bit modest here.

If you end up with three La Scalas and an AT screen you will be pleased.

I keep hearing that but why am I still hesitating? I just need to pull the trigger on the single LaScala and then make plans with Wake to begin designing a new front wall using a much larger AT Screen. I have some calculating to do to see how large of a screen I can go with my current projector. Would love to get a brighter one but that's just another upgrade I don't need to spend money on right now.

Next step: Audyssey, or something similar, if you don't have it already.

I've actually never owned a receiver with Audessey. I've owned Yamaha (YPAO), Onkyo (Pre-Audessey), Emotiva (EmoQ) and Harman Kardon (EZSet/EQ). Heard lots of great things about it. I have a friend that has an Onkyo TX-NR1008 for sale that I could probably buy pretty cheap. It doesn't have Audessey XT but it does have Audessey MultEQ. Is that good?

Our screen is 130" wide (true image width, not diagonal), and 2.35:1 in Aspect Ratio. Panavision, the 'scope version of Super 35, CinemaScope, Technirama etc. will fill the screen side to side and top to bottom with no unsightly black bars anywhere. With Todd-AO, D150, Technirama 70, and Camera 65 there needs to be a slight projector adjustment, and re-focus (takes just a minute or two, before the audience comes in, and small black bars, either at the sides -- 1 inch or so on each side -- for films shot in most 70 mm formats (2.2:1), or for the few films (about 3 or 4 good ones, including the two in Camera 65) shot in totally weird Aspect Ratios smallish black bars at the top and bottom). For the narrower, "standard screen" films (1.85:1, or, occasionally the fraudulent "wide screen" HDTV format, which is 1.78:1, originally called 16 x 9 to hide its true shape untill you did the math), it takes about 2 minutes to readjust, but the image is full screen height, just doesn't go all the way to the sides. Game of Thrones looks wonderful in that format, and there is a tendency to forget that it doesn't go all the way to the sides, because the screen doesn't look white there, thanks to our totally dark room. The old squarish format (Academy; about 1.37:1, not the oft cited 1.33:1, which is more or less the old CRT TV shape), also fills the screen from top to bottom, and has black bars on the sides. Citizen Kane looks fine that way. This "common height" set up is what filmmakers expected. If they selected one of the formats close to 2.35:1, they expected the screen area to be larger than the narrower screen formats, not smaller with black bars top and bottom! All of the best wide screen theaters used this "common height" set-up (there was only one in the San Francisco Bay Area that violated it).

Our room is about 17 by 25, with a ceiling that averages 10 feet. We have one row (a 5 seat couch) that puts people's eyes about 12 feet from the screen. The image is bright from every seat, with our Seymour screen. The skin detail we get is great, more than the actors may want. The audio image shifts slightly across the 5 seats, but the dialog remains centered and clear. If we had it to do over again, we would keep the screen the same size and shape. It is true that a slightly larger screen would be marginally better with a few of the old stye epics (e.g., Lawrence of Arabia or Ben-Hur), but filmmakers are now addicted to large close-ups, rack focus, and some seem to have forgotten that there is such a thing as the Steady-cam. We probably would have had a problem with some of the early scenes in Captain Phillips with a larger screen, or closer seats.

Compare the brightness, glare-freeness, and lack of hot spots of Seymour with Spandex and any other fabrics. Seymour will send you a sample.

Audyssey MultEQ XT is better than plain old MultEQ. The debate is whether XT32 is better than XT with all speakers, particularly with Heritage (which are not particularly flat in frequency response, but have other characteristics that make up for that). In general, most experts I've read, including Chris of Audyssey himself, think XT32 is better (and on more expensive AVRs and pre/pros). One criticism of XT is that the high frequency compensation can be "hairy," i.e., have many more abrupt compensation squiggles across the high frequency spectrum -- but that may be just what is needed with the squiggle prone Heritage line. This is the compenation curve, read from the pre-out outputs, and is supposedly the mirror image of the original room curve. The in-room final curve is much smoother, especially between 1K and 8K, with a deliberate cinema decline above that (which you can dial out, if you want). The final XT curve is the product of a "Fuzzy Logic" fitting -- reportedly better than an average -- that tries to make each seat a good seat, accross the 8 mic positions. Even with this better-than-averaging, I would expect the comp to be pretty "hairy" with our beloved Heritage, and the final in-room to be good, which it is. I am very happy with XT, but I find that it needs to have some bass boost after it is run (regular tone controls, not sliders, which turn Audyssey off), and I turn the sub up a few dB, as well.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Garyrc

[McMiRA]

I can tell you of the marantz units I have owned for my theater room, the 6006 7005 and 7007, I did not like what the 6006 did with my sub so I went to the 7005 and lost the second hdmi out, but luckily for me the place I bought it from new the 7007 was coming out in less than a month from time of purchse. So they told me to demo the 7005 and pick up a 7007 when it came out. I can tell you it's a huge improvement but the preouts are misleading. The 7007 will only decode 7 channels at a time, even through the rca outputs. You never get 11.2 or even the .2 for that matter. The unit is not physically wired to do it. The subs are just internally split. You can run 5.1 with heights, or widths but never more than 7 channels at a time, any day of the week or twice on Sundays even with external amplification. This is per marantz tech department

From what I understand the 7008 will amplify 9 channels at a time and decode only 9 at a time unless there is a firmware update that changed that. I don't know if the internal wiring supports it either. Best to call marantz and confirm the preouts. I can tell you This unit gives you audyssey multiEq xt32.

If 11.2 is what you seek, you will for sure find it in the av8801 pre/pro. This will be my next purchase when I upgrade.

Overall the 7007 is packed with features and runs half my house off one unit. Powers the theater room, acts as a source switcher for my office on zone 2 hdmi, and it's the preamp for my tube amp that runs my la scalas on zone 3. And even though it doesn't support 4 zones the second monitor hdmi output has been set up to run the pass through from the game systems In the theater room so I can also run them in my 3d room. If you wanted to you could even use the rgb outs to send more video

[NBPK402]

I can tell you of the marantz units I have owned for my theater room, the 6006 7005 and 7007, I did not like what the 6006 did with my sub so I went to the 7005 and lost the second hdmi out, but luckily for me the place I bought it from new the 7007 was coming out in less than a month from time of purchse. So they told me to demo the 7005 and pick up a 7007 when it came out. I can tell you it's a huge improvement but the preouts are misleading. The 7007 will only decode 7 channels at a time, even through the rca outputs. You never get 11.2 or even the .2 for that matter. The unit is not physically wired to do it. The subs are just internally split. You can run 5.1 with heights, or widths but never more than 7 channels at a time, any day of the week or twice on Sundays even with external amplification. This is per marantz tech department

From what I understand the 7008 will amplify 9 channels at a time and decode only 9 at a time unless there is a firmware update that changed that. I don't know if the internal wiring supports it either. Best to call marantz and confirm the preouts. I can tell you This unit gives you audyssey multiEq xt32.

If 11.2 is what you seek, you will for sure find it in the av8801 pre/pro. This will be my next purchase when I upgrade.

Overall the 7007 is packed with features and runs half my house off one unit. Powers the theater room, acts as a source switcher for my office on zone 2 hdmi, and it's the preamp for my tube amp that runs my la scalas on zone 3. And even though it doesn't support 4 zones the second monitor hdmi output has been set up to run the pass through from the game systems In the theater room so I can also run them in my 3d room. If you wanted to you could even use the rgb outs to send more video

Or you can save some money and just get the Denon 4520ci, and use the amps for multi zones.

[Youthman]

3 more days......but who's counting right?

[tragusa3]

Read 19 pages with 4 cups of coffee this morning! Exciting stuff happening for you Youthman!

If you are even slightly impressed right now, wait until you get all 3 working together and dialed in with your sub. The margin between the LS and the 83's will be larger at that point.

Going with the AT screen the full width of the room is the best move you could make. Pull the screen-wall out enough to allow for toe in. You want all horns pointing directly at your listening position. A laser pointer works nicely to determine this with the LS. Sit at the LP and point the laser from your ear to the LS and you will be able to see when the laser goes down the throat of the mid horn.

I was a revolving door of equipment myself, until I got my current setup. Now, making changes doesn't cross my mind. Sure, I could make improvements, but the cost would climb exponentially. A Heritage home theater is off the charts for value, and I know from reading your posts over the years that you are value oriented.

Regarding the caps, I redid my own. Not hard, and makes you feel like a tinkerer. The improvement in sound was marginal at best (for me).

Looking forward to hearing your impressions as you progress.

[Youthman]

Read 19 pages with 4 cups of coffee this morning!

Wow, have you come down from that caffein high yet? LOL. I drink "maybe" 1 - 2 cups of coffee per year.

Exciting stuff happening for you Youthman!

The more I think about it, the more I think about it. Wake and I are trying to work through where to put the equipment. Front of the room under the LaScalas, equipment rack behind the false wall, built into the back wall with rear of cabinet extruding into pantry closet or my son's bedroom closet.

Lots of decisions to be made.

Pull the screen-wall out enough to allow for toe in. You want all horns pointing directly at your listening position.

Yes, I've already verified they do not sound good shooting straight forward when I slid them behind the false wall. Currently, there is little to no room to toe them in behind the current false wall.

Now, making changes doesn't cross my mind. Sure, I could make improvements, but the cost would climb exponentially.

From the beginning, I had considered an AT Screen and always thought it would be best to have the center directly behind the screen but because I wasn't "handy", an AT Fixed screen was well above what I wanted to spend on a screen. Even my current Elite 103" screen was more than I originally wanted to spend but it was one of the least expensive options at the time. Believe it was around $550.

A Heritage home theater is off the charts for value, and I know from reading your posts over the years that you are value oriented.

You are correct, I'm all for value. When I find a good deal, I tend to jump on it and figure out how to make it work later.