Don Richard Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 bi-amping will yield very favorable results if done properly That would be with a crossover or digital processor ahead of the amplifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I'm pretty surprised that of all the comments in this thread there is good advise or points in all of them. I wouldn't want to leave it without saying I don't want you to buy or sell based on my opinion, its just that.The Emotiva is a nice unit and a good company, Ive owned several units they offered. I think you may find a different sound stage with different gear allowing different placement options.Bill mentioned direction, I always has my 7s aimed just behind my head a foot or so with great results. Its all about what makes it great to you though. My advise for what its worth is trying eveything you can,gear, placement etc...its like life, its not the destination its the journey. Best of luck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattSER Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 UPDATE: After spending all night and half of today tinkering, I've come to a somber conclusion....... the problem IS the Onkyo. It took me less than 24hrs to decide that I'm putting the 3008 up for sale and ordering an Emotiva XDA-2 dac/pre-amp. I'm not much of a movie guy, so I'm heading down the Emotiva 2-channel route. Sorry, Onkyo....and Bill and Tremors. I was thinking about your harshness problem when I came up on your conclusions about the Onk. None of us here would try to defer you from buying new stuff, since it's what we all want to do. However, I had a question and maybe a comment. (I have the Onk 717). Question: Are you doing all your listening in Direct Mode? I'm guessing you have tried many of the Onk's listening modes, but there is no question my Onk is the most harsh in Direct Mode, but it's also the most "punchy" mode. Comment: I like what you have discovered about bi-amping. I have considered doing the same thing, but I keep being pretty happy with a single AVR. Are you sure it is the Onk that is the problem, or is it the Emo amp that has enabled you to attenuate the harshness? To my way of thinking, that would make it a speaker harshness problem, and not an amp harshness problem. Your thoughts? I did try all the different listening modes but couldn't bring myself to sacrifice the detail and resolution that only the Direct and Pure modes offer. Yes, "Stereo" mode did soften things up a bit, but it also seemed to blur things over similar to a lower bitrate digital recording. I was initially bi-amping with the Onkyo driving the woofers and the Emo driving the horns. I turned the Emo down and found a nice sweet spot that eliminated the harshness but still gave of a substantial high-end sparkle and a lot of detail(more than the Onkyo). Then, this morning, I took the Onkyo out of the equation and connected my PC directly to the Emo and replaced the jumpers on the RF-7s. The harshness is dramatically alleviated and bass response did not take the hit I expected(the Onkyo is much more powerful than the Emo). Everything is tighter, more detailed, and seemingly higher resolution. I'm still not sure that the RF-7s are the speakers for me(I also tried the Emo directly with my 35s and was supremely impressed), but I no longer feel the need to modify or equalize. So yeah, bummer about the Onkyo. It was one of the few large purchases in the past 5 years or so and I was very happy with it for quite a while. But it is now sitting on Denver craigslist awaiting a new owner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I am currently in my buddy's theater room where he has an Onkyo 5007 driving a full RF7 setup and I am blown away by the HT experience. No harshness just gobs of clean bass and very detailed mids and highs. The room is well damped so definitely not over bright. Bill 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I'm guessing somewhere in the mid 80s db range for extended periods and upwards of 95-105 for shorter lengths. I believe 105db on RF-7's is at the threshold of melting your ear drums. At our house (Klipschorns, modified Belle center, Heresy II surrounds) the usual peaks in loud music are about 100 dB ("fast," "C"), and they sound great. Once in a great while, we might get brief peaks up to 110 dB, and that sounds fine, too. Above that is where the strain starts, so we don't go there. Naturally, we don't play bad recordings loudly, just the good to great ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I am glad you worked things out and are happy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattSER Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 FINAL UPDATE: I am now in love with these RF-7s. The Emotiva made all the difference in the world. It's clear to me now that the Onkyo was designed for multi-channel use and I'm sure it serves its intended purpose very well. I've simply been using the wrong tool for the job. After listening all night, I don't think I have any problems selling my 35s anymore. The Emotiva has balanced everything from top to bottom, my soundstage is slightly wider than the speakers now, and it's given me my first taste of this "imaging" thing that I've always heard about but never experienced. I feel completely enveloped in the sound. It's so wide open and involving. It's a somewhat paralyzing feeling! If I manage to sell all my other gear, I think I'm actually coming out ahead(financially) and ending up with the best 2-channel set-up I've ever heard! Yeah, I'm pretty ecstatic right now 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattSER Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 And to think, this is all with the Emotiva A-100 mini-amp. I don't know how much this huge toroidal transformer matters, but it's interesting that this little Emo has one and my $2100 Onkyo does not. I can't wait to upgrade to the XPA-200, or possibly XPA-2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Well there ya go... one thing,as stated earlier ITT, I think high efficiency horns are better served by being off axis to LP... slightly behind the LP. it will help imaging tremendously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Congrats! Separates are the way to go for sure with the larger speakers imo. I've had a set of the 35's and thought they great for what they were, haven't heard the 7's yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The History Kid Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 ^ Wait 'till next month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tremors Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) Just to reiterate, in my personal situation with the RF-7's & Onkyo 3008, I don't do ANY two channel listening. I ran the Audyssey XT-32 through its paces, set it at ALL CHANNEL STEREO, and left it there. I tend to dabble between a couple different Dolby settings only when using it to watch TV, or the occasional movie that was clearly mastered to be played back in 5.1 & 7.1 recordings. Edited November 16, 2014 by Tremors 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted November 16, 2014 Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2014 When I had my TX-SR703, I thought it was fantastic for HT but it wasn't what I wanted for 2ch. To me, it didn't separate the musical instruments like my previous Harman Kardon did. It was a smoother, more blended sound. Maybe that was exaggerated by the fact that I had it paired with the RF-83's which have a very smooth, refined sound in and of themselves. I sold it before I bought my first pair of RF-7's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiminSTL Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) Now that this issue seems to be resolved . . . TNR, I quote from your posting, "I have log walls and a high vaulted ceiling." Well, I have the high vaulted ceiling part, it is the log walls that I would love to have! You would think it possible, in this state of Dan'l Boone and the start of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, wouldn't you? Edited November 16, 2014 by JiminSTL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted November 16, 2014 Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2014 It's clear to me now that the Onkyo was designed for multi-channel use and I'm sure it serves its intended purpose very well. Probably true, it's not like it's a bad unit, it really was designed for HT. I did almost the same thing you did, 2 ch is now separated from the Ht with huge results. I was using just the pre-outs of a AVR to control 2 ch, not good, it gave me the same sound as just being run with a AVR. Almost completely separated the two for giant difference in sound. I say "almost because I use the same streaming BD player for both setups. I put a optical splitter in the output line of the Br player and went to each setup, it works great. Just to check, they both can be run at the same time, it seems too make no difference in the signal being split. Glad you got it figured out, it was hard to believe the 7's were not better than what you experienced before the change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 You use optical out for sound as opposed to hdmi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Great...glad you made so much progress on the 7s. This is just one of my adventures that I used to get into with trying to find the best match for 7s. I would drag in three or four at a time and try em for a week or two.I learned a lot about differerent units and their sound. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I was using just the pre-outs of a AVR to control 2 ch Just goes to show how important the compatability/synergy thing is.... I've batted around with so many preamps....modern, vintage, tube etc. and came full circle to a Denon 3805 as a preamp only. It's a perfect match with KLF-30's. However, when I had RF-7's it was great for movies but terrible for music unless it was a perfect recording...and in that case it was almost unbeatable but very limited to what kind of music I could listen to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) Here is a FR plot of an RF-7 taken under unknown conditions: Notice the little peak in response at 2kHz? The "BBC dip" (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/34354-bbc-dip.html) that Derrick alluded to should correct that issue. The "Audyssey Reference Curve" To say that "the Onkyo IS the problem" just sounds odd to me. If the Onkyo has anything like Audyssey installed, I'd run that - since it will put the BBC dip in there for you. The other possibility that I can see is the tweeters on the RF-7s having some issues. The literature says that the original RF-7s cross at 2.2 kHz, which is pretty much on top of the BBC dip, so I'm thinking that you're listening to a center lobe peak at that frequency, which is giving you troubles with listening fatigue. I assume that when the RF-7 II came out, it corrected that issue by crossing over at 1200 Hz. Simply tilting the loudspeakers backward or forward a little bit or toeing them inward or outward by an additional 10 degrees or more would probably alleviate that issue if that is the culprit. Chris Edited November 16, 2014 by Chris A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akdave Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Nice thread matt - I learned a lot here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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