Dampening Klipsch horns for better sound - worth a try?

[Southern]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:32 PM, hron61 said:

Rope caulking is what I used on my Forte 1 horns years ago. 

Was a nice improvement, no more harshness.

I had the exact opposite experience with rope caulking my Forte 1 horns, I couldn't get the rope caulk off fast enough.

I use a tube amp for the horns, never had any harshness.

[pcbiz]

The Forte I horns may seem harsh to new Klipsch users, but if you've had the Fortes for decades, you tend to like the sound as it is.

I only got into vintage Klipsch horn speakers during the covid shutdown, and damping my Heresy and Chorus mid horns was a substantial improvement with my tube amps. The current lineup of Klipsch Heritage speakers have much better horn designs. 

[Kinst VonSterga]

Applied Dynamat Extreme to the stamped-steel woofer cage, mid-horn and tweeter.  I can honestly say that the two plastic horns + large metal basket no longer "ring" when tapped on, but then again, I don't make it a habit of tapping on either when playing music via. these beautiful Heresy IVs. 

I may treat the right speaker or just remove what was done to the left, as the Dynamat cleanly comes off the metal and plastic with no issue, though its not going anywhere if left undisturbed. 

Either way, I measured the treated Left speaker (red) to its au naturel Right (green) using REW, so folks can make up their own mind, rather than hear any subjective 👍or 👎 from me.  

Printscreens are posted here.  REW MDAT files will be posted next (due to their file size).

Cheers,

Edited December 6, 2023 by Kinst VonSterga
color L/R reference

[Dave MacKay]

4 hours ago, Kinst VonSterga said:

Applied Dynamat Extreme to the stamped-steel woofer cage, mid-horn and tweeter. 

 

Either way, I measured the treated Left speaker to its au naturel Right using REW, so folks can make up their own minds, rather than hear any subjective 👍or 👎 from me.  

 

 

Thank-you. Anecdotal impressions are one thing but data is much more helpful.

Which colour is for the treated horn? 
 

[KT88]

treated is left and red.

[OO1]

 

-dont forget the H IV is a ported speaker design vs a sealed cabinet , you wanna keep it as close to stock as possible for optimal (  air-flow  ) performance  

[mark1101]

Looks like it reduced the amplitude and dynamics.  Basically, not a Klipsch speaker anymore.  Once you buy it, it is yours to do as you wish.  Enjoy.

[Kinst VonSterga]

Here is the actual Mdat files (L & R) from REW, using *.RAR (instead of *.ZIP); since I couldn't upload the files under the < 2MB posting limit.

Some final comments:

• The nice thing with this test is that the dampening material comes off as easily as they went on, depending on whether the desired results are obtained (or not).
• This is to confirm nothing else was added to the speaker case, port, etc.
• I'm guessing that there's another variable I cannot test, i.e., the placebo effect of the changes I made. What I see in the data is extremely difficult for me to discern/hear with my ear(s), especially when I listen to each L vs. R channel on its own.  On that note, perhaps I should get my hearing checked too, left vs. right ear, as that too may have skewed any subjective opinions to boot 😉
• If folks are interested in seeing the installed Dynamat Extreme sheets on the drivers, just let me know, and I'll post these pics to this thread. 

Thnx

 

L&R_H-IV_MDat_REW.rar

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kinst VonSterga

[KT88]

Damping is good when something makes really shrill resonances. This is especially true for direct radiators where the sound pressure is much lower than with horns. There, these ugly resonances are in stronger competition with the signal. A horn has a much higher sound pressure compared to the resonances it could generate due to its materials if not optimised. However, I see a new problem with the damping caused by thick additional materials wrapped around a horn. It is exactly the problem that should be avoided at all costs. It is the storage of the sound for a few microseconds that leads to a time smear. As a result, the sound sometimes appears unclean and washed out. At first it may sound "smoother" but after a while I find it more lifeless and constricted than without the damping wrapped up. A horn always sounds fresher when it is not tied up. However I could assume that if you listen to a horn very quietly, then unpleasant resonances have a more disturbing part than if you listen louder.

 

The attachment to the baffle should dampen the natural vibrations sufficiently. I also believe that this is a relevant difference between the Underground Jubilie and the Heritage Jubilie where the mouth is attached to a frame. An improvement could be if the material of a horn has better internal damping. E.g. the difference between a K400 and a K401. Maybe I still prefer my old K400, because I reckon it has a little less storage than a K401. The price of the K401 for smoothing the self-resonance. But that's just a guess, someone would have to measure it. At least 1960s jazz records with their dynamics and impulse are tailor-made for the K400...or vice versa.

For my Underground Jubilee I am thinking of a frame for the mouth. If I may dream, the K402 should be made of birch plywood.

 

[John Warren]

It's Damping, not Dampening.

[Invidiosulus]

5 hours ago, John Warren said:

It's Damping, not Dampening.

If you get them wet they don’t really sound any better.

[JohnA]

The short horns in a Forte are unlikely to benefit at all.  But, .....  I can't see how it could hurt anything but your wallet.  Longer, larger horns of other materials do show some reduction in edginess. 

[opnly bafld]

3 hours ago, Invidiosulus said:

If you get them wet they don’t really sound any better.

 

It might give that liquid midrange some seek.

[Kinst VonSterga]

After hours of listening to my treated speaker, I decided to mod (i.e., damp or dampen) its partner and apply DSP afterward. My personal and subjective verdict is that I hear no difference between the treated vs. untreated tweeter or bass drivers. However, there is a noticeable difference with the mid-horns, especially when I play music that spans its entire frequency range.  As one who owns and plays various instruments from the baroque era, the Heresy twins are now projecting the same tonal quality, timbre, and 3D imaging that I find when playing the exact same "real life" instruments (i.e., alto and soprano blockflutes, 4xchoir 2-manual concert harpsichord, and 1xchoir virginal) that reside in the same room. Very impressive, especially when coupled with my KEF KF92, but it only makes me wonder what magic lurks behind Klipsch's larger brethren within the same heritage line, or how much more my Heresy twins will shine if I relocate them to my great room with hardwood floors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Kinst VonSterga
Added pictures

[Islander]

Damping also refers to reducing the amplitude of oscillations in vehicle suspensions.  An alternative name for shock absorbers is dampers.  A vehicle with undamped suspension (springs only, no shock absorbers) is barely controllable at speed.

[JJkizak]

Is this damping anyway related to the "honking" of mid range voices at certain frequencies?

JJK

[billybob]

2 hours ago, Islander said:

Damping also refers to reducing the amplitude of oscillations in vehicle suspensions.  An alternative name for shock absorbers is dampers.  A vehicle with undamped suspension (springs only, no shock absorbers) is barely controllable at speed.

True enough...

[avguytx]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:27 AM, John Warren said:

It's Damping, not Dampening.

 

Sent you a message as your time allows. 

[pcbiz]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:24 PM, Kinst VonSterga said:

After hours of listening to my treated speaker, I decided to mod (i.e., damp or dampen) its partner and apply DSP afterward. My personal and subjective verdict is that I hear no difference between the treated vs. untreated tweeter or bass drivers. However, there is a noticeable difference with the mid-horns, especially when I play music that spans its entire frequency range.  As one who owns and plays various instruments from the baroque era, the Heresy twins are now projecting the same tonal quality, timbre, and 3D imaging that I find when playing the exact same "real life" instruments (i.e., alto and soprano blockflutes, 4xchoir 2-manual concert harpsichord, and 1xchoir virginal) that reside in the same room. Very impressive, especially when coupled with my KEF KF92, but it only makes me wonder what magic lurks behind Klipsch's larger brethren within the same heritage line, or how much more my Heresy twins will shine if I relocate them to my great room with hardwood floors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I came to the same conclusion. I updated my Heresy I pair with Dynamat on the mid horn only. It worked just as well with my vintage Chorus and La Scala speakers.

I'm also a musician, and changing speaker wires is just second nature to me. Better copper interior wiring definitely made a sonic improvement in my vintage Klipsch speakers. If you can, make a few measurements with upgraded wiring.

[Godzilla]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:21 AM, Kinst VonSterga said:

Applied Dynamat Extreme to the stamped-steel woofer cage, mid-horn and tweeter.  I can honestly say that the two plastic horns + large metal basket no longer "ring" when tapped on, but then again, I don't make it a habit of tapping on either when playing music via. these beautiful Heresy IVs. 

I may treat the right speaker or just remove what was done to the left, as the Dynamat cleanly comes off the metal and plastic with no issue, though its not going anywhere if left undisturbed. 

Either way, I measured the treated Left speaker (red) to its au naturel Right (green) using REW, so folks can make up their own mind, rather than hear any subjective 👍or 👎 from me.  

Printscreens are posted here.  REW MDAT files will be posted next (due to their file size).

Cheers,

Thanks! I rope caulked the horns of my Heresy IV in an effort to reduce a bit of resonance or sibilance and subjectively it seems to have worked. After caulking I played many of the songs that had some kind of sibilance (James Taylor, Norah Jones, Ella Fitzgerald, etc.) and it no longer bothers me. I'm glad you were able to measure a difference but looking at your charts makes me wonder if the green and red are mixed up? I hear less treble energy after caulking the horns. Regardless, I prefer the sound and seeing a difference in the measurements makes sense. Many thanks for sharing.