Flevoman Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Probably this question will yield answers that are diametrically opposed. But I still hope it can lead me to a choice.😇 My situation is as follows. My AL5 speakers were set up against the long wall in the width direction. My audio set neatly positioned between the speakers and connected with speaker cables (Audioquest 5). For several reasons (including an acoustic issue), I have now set up my speakers lengthwise as a test. This resulted in some very positive improvements to the sound. Therefore, I am strongly considering leaving this setup like this, but it will require a drastic investment, such as purchasing different furniture and speaker cables. Because to make this work, I can no longer place my audio set between the speakers and am forced to leave it in the old position, requiring speaker cables of 8m length now. My problem is that I have no idea if increasing from 3m length to 8m length will result in audible quality loss. The only way to test this is to try it myself, but it will be a quite expensive test since I cannot return the cables if it turns out to be disappointing. What is your experience, does 8m length cause a loss in the audio signal? And if this shouldn't be a problem, what values should I consider when choosing the cable? For example, is 2.1mm per conductor sufficient? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parlophone1 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Many forum members would have their hi-fi systems with cables of significant length. If your components cabinet is on a side-wall and speakers on the wall left or right (or even oposit) to the cabinet, the length of speaker cables will be more than you had until now. There are threads where forum members discussed that before. To my memory, use 12 or 10 AWG speaker cable and you should be fine. KnuKonzeptz Kord ultraflex comes to mind as a flexible and reasonably priced cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1MoreFord Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 There are those who seem to think wire and cables have to cost insane amounts of money to be of good quality. I'm not one of those folks. IMO some of the Monoprice speaker wire from the link below will be fine for your situation. 14Ga should work but 12ga will add a margin of safety. Sorry, I don't know if Monoprice is commonly available in Europe or if there is an equivalent there. https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2817 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 @Flevoman Boy, you done did it now……😲 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 - What an opportunity to begin a sub stack thread on motor oil. But to answer the 3M to 8M question - don’t do it. More than likely those pesky electrons will run out of steam around the 6M mark leaving you with no signal to the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 8 hours ago, Flevoman said: Probably this question will yield answers that are diametrically opposed. But I still hope it can lead me to a choice.😇 My situation is as follows. My AL5 speakers were set up against the long wall in the width direction. My audio set neatly positioned between the speakers and connected with speaker cables (Audioquest 5). For several reasons (including an acoustic issue), I have now set up my speakers lengthwise as a test. This resulted in some very positive improvements to the sound. Therefore, I am strongly considering leaving this setup like this, but it will require a drastic investment, such as purchasing different furniture and speaker cables. Because to make this work, I can no longer place my audio set between the speakers and am forced to leave it in the old position, requiring speaker cables of 8m length now. My problem is that I have no idea if increasing from 3m length to 8m length will result in audible quality loss. The only way to test this is to try it myself, but it will be a quite expensive test since I cannot return the cables if it turns out to be disappointing. What is your experience, does 8m length cause a loss in the audio signal? And if this shouldn't be a problem, what values should I consider when choosing the cable? For example, is 2.1mm per conductor sufficient? I used Kimber 8TC for over 20 years and never thought about it again. For a year now, our daughter and her husband have had a nice little stereo system, a Bluesound Power Node together with Stirling Broadcast LS3/5a speakers that fit perfectly acoustically into their smaller living room (I also have such Stirling speakers in addition to my Klipsch speakers and I like them very much for what they are). Then there was the question of the speaker cable at my daughters place. Having been out of the market for 20 years, I rummaged through some hifi forums. I noticed that cables from very professional studio equipment companies were mentioned very positively more often. So I took it sporty and built Japanese Canare 4S11 Star Quad cables (not as bi-wiring item, but two wires each for plus and minus together) as bulk cables at 6.50 € per running meter. I used Deltron banana plugs for 1.15 € each. In the end I was very surprised that I liked it even better than the Kimber 8TC (nowadays 140 € to 160 € a mono meter in my country). Less "hifi", so without the slight presence boost of the Kimber, which can be a bit too much with some music) but much more musical flow and neutrality delivered by the Canare. This is a very subjective topic and it is never possible to give a general recommendation or make an "objective" statement. But I can say that with the price difference between the Kimber 8TC and the Canare 4S11, my heart beats for the Canare in any case, not only because of the price difference. For a fair comparison, I even cut off the 20-year-old banana plugs of the Kimber cable (possible oxidation) and replaced them with newly soldered Deltron plugs. In various forums, some people say that the Canare 4S11 needs a long break-in period of up to 400 hours. Personally, I don't believe in the myth of long break-in times, no matter what it is, caps, amps, tubes cables etc. But...I do notice that the treble becomes more open and brilliant, much more spacious. The bass is drier, deeper and stronger. But no frequency range stands out unpleasantly. It is absolutely naturally balanced overall. I thought it would be funny to make an experiment about which I have not read in the web right now: I soldered two pairs of the Canare 4S11 at the same time so that I wouldn't deceive myself. One pair has been playing in my system since 5 weeks, alternating between Underground Jubilees and Stirling Boradcast monitors. I put the other pair of Canare (same lngth, solder and plugs, made at the same day) on the shelf immediately after assembly. I won't connect it up for the first time for another 6 or seven weeks, say. Then I'll see if I'm just imagining any break in changes (which I now think they are there) or if the unplayed cable really sounds same same. This test I will do with friends and my family as well. So, Flevoman, if you calculate, your Audioquest 5 costs about 30 € per meter as bulk cable. https://www.audionirvana.cz/de/e-shop/audioquest-kabel/audioquest-typ-5-mit-geflecht-freie-meterzahl-1464/?var=2+x+0%2C5+m The Kimber 8TC costs about 140 € per meter bulk: https://www.dienadel.de/kimber-kable-8tc-whiteclear-ls-kabel-meterware/a-353631842 The Canare costs ca. 6.20 € one meter bulk (the only place where to get them in Europe) https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/bi-wiring-amping/canare-4s11-star-quad-speaker-cable-copper-4x208mm-o107mm-p-11708.html Regarding the length of the speaker cable: If you scroll down the page/link below, the damping factor for the Canare 4S11 is 50 up to a cable length of more than 10 metres. By the way, don't be impressed when some people say "only stranded is good, or stranded is bad and only solid cable is good. It's rubbish and marketing. I give all cables a chance when listening. But what I have to say is that hardly anyone of the "high end" cables gives as many important parameters of their cable (R, L, sometimes even Z, C) as the professional companies do (Canare, Mogami, Belden etc.). Here about the length of the cable scroll down a bit: https://www.canare.co.jp/en/products/cables/index.php?tid=4_008 There you will see that the Canare 4S11 has a damping factor of 50 for a length of over 12 metres. And a damping factor of 20 at almost 40 metres. For me, that counts for more than snake oil recipes. (I don't mean that e.g. Audioquest is dubious, no, it's a very reputable company, but there are also the black sheep). So with a length of 8 metres (please do not "bi-wiring" such a 4S11 cable but take the two red and the two white wires together each) you are completely on the safe side. I use 5 metres and can't hear any difference to my daughter's 3,5 metres. One more point about the plugs. If you use banana plugs. There is also a lot of metallised snake oil here. I don't think people talk about anything more stupid than plug quality and material. What influence should such a short piece of connector have on the overall length of a cable? If it were so critical, nobody would use gold-plated plugs. Because gold has only 30% conductivity (which many people don't realise) while silver has 80% conductivity. And if something exotic like iridium comes into play $$$, then you've fallen into the black hole of marketing. For me, a banana plug should be small, light and stable. And make very good contact with the amp and speaker. I have used that plugs below in the link which fulfil my requirements. They are also hollow but a closed tube, i.e. stable and geometrically good conductors. https://www.tme.eu/de/details/579-0500/bananenstecker-4mm/deltron/ With white cap it costs 1,22 € instead of 2,18 € :)) It says nickel plated, but the plug is silver plated if you read the technical paper, of Deltron and if you want gold you can get it: https://www.tme.eu/de/details/584-0100/bananenstecker-4mm/deltron/ I think I've seen some hifi shops selling these gold Deltron plugs under a different name (was it Naim?) for a lot more. And beware of Amazon in this case, they sell the very simple plugs like in the first link above for ca. 10 USD one piece. https://www.amazon.de/-/en/579-0100-Banana-Black-Non-Insulated-DELTRON/dp/B013RLNX9S So in the USA just shop at Mouser or similar. The really important thing is that only these cheap but smart Deltron plugs have a steel spring and the whole plug forms a stable contact on the opposite side of the steel spring without gas inclusion. The surface area is much larger than that of normal banana plugs with their many thin, elongated springs or those hollow open tubes that are so prone to breaking off. And you get no vibration of the plug. Well, Deltron comes from measurement technology and not from hi-fi fantasy land. I'm not related to anyone at Canare or Deltron, just a satisfied customer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezin' Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 I make my own from decent but far from expensive parts. Oxygen free copper zip cord heat shrink and gold plated banana plugs from Amazon. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 9 hours ago, Flevoman said: Probably this question will yield answers that are diametrically opposed. But I still hope it can lead me to a choice.😇 My problem is that I have no idea if increasing from 3m length to 8m length will result in audible quality loss. this make me giggle out loud... for someone that can supposedly hear 1" MDF resonance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real Duke Spinner Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 2 hours ago, geezin' said: I make my own from decent but far from expensive parts. Oxygen free copper zip cord heat shrink and gold plated banana plugs from Amazon. Zip Cord rocks. 😀 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 There shouldn’t be any reason why going from 3m to 8m long cables should cost more than $20. And since you have Klipschorns I’m assuming you can afford that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 I think he has La Scalas...... All my speaker cables in the 2 channel room are over 8 meters. Amp rack is remotely located in utility room. The longer the speaker cable the greater in size it needs to be to keep resistance loss as low as the shorter cable. Will there be a small loss in the higher frequencies because of more capacitance and inductance? Probably. Can you hear it? Only your ears will tell you that. Turn up the treble control or EQ on the high freqs. Star Quad cable for speaker cable is overkill IMHO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 43 minutes ago, babadono said: I think he has La Scalas...... All my speaker cables in the 2 channel room are over 8 meters. Amp rack is remotely located in utility room. The longer the speaker cable the greater in size it needs to be to keep resistance loss as low as the shorter cable. Will there be a small loss in the higher frequencies because of more capacitance and inductance? Probably. Can you hear it? Only your ears will tell you that. Turn up the treble control or EQ on the high freqs. Star Quad cable for speaker cable is overkill IMHO. If you can have it for 6 Euros oder Dollars a meter? BTW the Audioquest 5 also is a kind of a star quad cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flevoman Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 Thank you for the responses. I'll follow the advice and purchase an affordable cable to test if there's any noticeable difference with this length. From what I gather from the comments, the chances are very slim that this will result in any noticeable loss in quality. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I paid probably around $2.25 a meter for what I use. And I chose it for how it looks once I realized what I built into the walls was not sufficient. My opinion is save your money on cables and put it where it counts...on your speakers. https://www.knukonceptz.com/home-theater/speaker-wire/karma-ss-speaker-kable/sp/karma-ss-12-gauge-speaker-wire-100-feet/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 16 hours ago, 1MoreFord said: There are those who seem to think wire and cables have to cost insane amounts of money to be of good quality. I'm not one of those folks. IMO some of the Monoprice speaker wire from the link below will be fine for your situation. 14Ga should work but 12ga will add a margin of safety. Sorry, I don't know if Monoprice is commonly available in Europe or if there is an equivalent there. https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2817 That's what I primarily use. No sign of corrosion after 13 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 3 hours ago, babadono said: I paid probably around $2.25 a meter for what I use. And I chose it for how it looks once I realized what I built into the walls was not sufficient. My opinion is save your money on cables and put it where it counts...on your speakers. https://www.knukonceptz.com/home-theater/speaker-wire/karma-ss-speaker-kable/sp/karma-ss-12-gauge-speaker-wire-100-feet/ There's no reason why I shouldn't try out these cables or similar as well if the occasion arises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parlophone1 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I had in same system Knukonzeptz 10 AWG and silver VandenHull, and if you really push me I could maybe tell that Knu seemed a bit warmer in bass and Hull was a bit brighter in highs. ☺️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 23 hours ago, wuzzzer said: There shouldn’t be any reason why going from 3m to 8m long cables should cost more than $20. And since you have Klipschorns I’m assuming you can afford that. Ok, we have a faction here that says that the cheapest cables are good enough. I don't belong to that camp. In my experience, cables can make a difference. However, the Canare 4S11 is not a "compromise". Some people have given up their €2000+ cables for it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Different speaker wire can make a difference, however, the threshold of diminishing returns is where people tend to find the most varied opinions. Personally, I've landed on exterior low voltage cable from Home Depot. Comes in 14GA and 12GA, has a nice thick black jacket, and lays flat almost immediately after unspooling. It has made no detrimental impacts to my various systems, and so there isn't much reason for me to look elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 11 hours ago, parlophone1 said: I had in same system Knukonzeptz 10 AWG and silver VandenHull, and if you really push me I could maybe tell that Knu seemed a bit warmer in bass and Hull was a bit brighter in highs. ☺️ I'd call it heavy in the bass, muffled mids and treble! These gave a much better clean & clear from 20 to 20Khz Both did increase the dbs some compared to my older Phoenix 14g tinned copper wiring. I'm not going $$$ but did get those Rocket 33s at the garage sale here and love them! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.