Are high-end crossovers worth it?

[Boxx]

For old times sake.....

[Deang]

Well I know this will make me unpopular and I mean no offense by it or anything, but I didn't hear any difference at all when the fancy crossovers were dropped in (don't think I was the only one either).

It's been almost 10 years, so I'm going to respond to this now.

The whole room heard the improvement -- I think I made five sales within a half an hour after the networks were dropped in. People which had previously been sitting 20 feet away from the LaScalas, started moving back to the front of the room -- Craig and me were both laughing about it. If you didn't hear a difference, it was because you either weren't paying attention to what it sounded like before the new networks were dropped in, or I can add you to my list of people who I know have hearing damage. Many on this list are people who freely admit it and hold it up like some badge of honor.

Seriously Mike, please tell me you're still not sitting on this untenable position.

Edited May 17, 2014 by DeanG

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Wow, old thread, I wonder what ever happened to KlipsDude...

[Deang]

Didn't we find out that "he" was a "she"?

[rbrown0678]

Hi all, I didn't want to start a new topic , just thought I'd add a few lines of conformation that yes better parts does make a difference, I had the pleasure and good

fortune of speaking with DeanG about some issues I had been having, with the HI from my Cornwall 1. V-Caps were the only upgrade the compolants

were stock except for the LF which I had to replace with new from klipsch, personally they sound better to me. Anyway the Mids were dominating most of the

audible range and stifling the Hi's . During my babblings with dean I must have said something that made sense to him , and he started to explain the different

functions of the HI and LOW pass 1st order and all the stuff you'll know, then he said you have something to write with, well I quickly got pencil and paper wrote

down what he said and as I was going through the old post say his about super b network.

My reason for this post is with the simple addition of a inductor in line with Mid, the separation and presence of the Mid horn and tweeter has defined

spaces between them. After making the changes to one network I reinstalled it and was a little surprise ,it seems as if it wasn't playing, I must admit I didn't know

what to expect , I made the change to the other one and power back up , and yea . the Mids had recessed and the HI are elevated. I'm a happy camper years ago

I had a Warfdale single cone 12'' spkr this has surpassed it,

THK U SIR

Errol

[Schu]

So, this left me wondering... Is it really worth it? I'll have half what my speakers are worth just in crossover parts...

and your point is?

[beeker]

YES if you can

[Deang]

Hi Errol,

It sounds like you put the .40mH coil between tap 3 on the autoformer and squawker positive. PK had that coil in his earliest networks, I don't know why he removed it -- everyone seems to agree that it's a nice tweak.

[rbrown0678]

yes , as stated I'm very hap.py ,I believe the only thing that might itch is amplification , but wont be scratching, every thing sound so right, sat 6' feet from spkr and they just pull you in.

probably sent him in the direction of the ref line, for those who are looking for improvement to their stock cornwall 1 its definitely worth doing.

[mike stehr]

yes , as stated I'm very hap.py ,I believe the only thing that might itch is amplification , but wont be scratching, every thing sound so right, sat 6' feet from spkr and they just pull you in.

probably sent him in the direction of the ref line, for those who are looking for improvement to their stock cornwall 1 its definitely worth doing.

Dean brought up the .40 millihenrie inductor in series with the midhorn tweak to myself as well. I just happened to have a pair Jantzen .39mH coils lying about and tried it. Works well, especially if one listens in a near-field situation with a small room. The charge-coupling is the icing on the cake.

Edited May 20, 2014 by mike stehr

[DrWho]

Well I know this will make me unpopular and I mean no offense by it or anything, but I didn't hear any difference at all when the fancy crossovers were dropped in (don't think I was the only one either).

It's been almost 10 years, so I'm going to respond to this now.

The whole room heard the improvement -- I think I made five sales within a half an hour after the networks were dropped in. People which had previously been sitting 20 feet away from the LaScalas, started moving back to the front of the room -- Craig and me were both laughing about it. If you didn't hear a difference, it was because you either weren't paying attention to what it sounded like before the new networks were dropped in, or I can add you to my list of people who I know have hearing damage. Many on this list are people who freely admit it and hold it up like some badge of honor.

Seriously Mike, please tell me you're still not sitting on this untenable position.

Haha wow, talk about a blast from the past.

How would you personally describe the overall sound quality of this particular experience? To what do you attribute the difference in sound?

I wrote an interesting reply, but I realized that I would like to hear from you first as to what you think is happening before I bias your response. You're the designer, you tell us why it's supposed to sound better. Think of it as an invitation to advertise your wares.

Btw, I'm not trying to play any games here - I'm seriously interested where you're coming from.

[jwc]

Are high-end crossovers worth it?

That is the question....long time ago. And again?

So called "audio engineering garble" can be thrown at this time and time again......

For me the question is " crossover upgrade or change" or however u want to phrase it....can be a substantial improvement in the right application.

Been through many xo's offered on this forum....not the RF variety though. U can't convince me that the stock xo by Klipsch is always the best.....esp the Heritage line.

[Coytee]

Regarding the stock xovers... I've always wondered... do they have "crossover building day" at the factory and several people sit around and make them for all the production or, do they farm them out to another company? Another country?

Who actually heats the solder and melts the wax?

[oscarsear]

I've owned 2 sets of Khorns built some decades apart, and have installed a high priced crossover. For starts the newer stock Khorns (2005) sounded worse than the older pair (1983?). I thought it was just me, but my family noticed the difference too. I did not have them side by side for A-B comparison but I really disliked the AK 5 crossover. I put in ALK's steep slope crossovers - better than either stock crossover by a wide margin, and everyone who heard them all - agrees. Worth it? Ayup.

[Deang]

You have a really big room -- if I'm remembering right.

I didn't care much for the ESNs in my room, which is pretty small -- I was only 12 feet off of my Klipschorns.

The filter type that one will prefer is very much tied to the size of the room, how far back they sit, and how loud they listen.

[seanwalsh]

Does current or voltage driven amplifiers ever enter into the preference?

[djk]

Yes, no current source amplifiers for networks with autoformers.

[Deang]

People normally mean tubes when they say "voltage" and solid state when the say "current".

I guess we could use some clarification on what the OP meant by what he said, as well as some additional information to help with that really short sentence of yours,

Tube Amps have a higher output impedance than solid state, but everyone designs around a very low output impedance. On a practical level, I don't think an autoformer cares one way or the other. I've seen amplitude response curves for these loudspeakers driven by both tube and solid state, and there is no difference.

As for the other:

Autotransformers are impedance multipliers, and they're an elegant and efficient way to attenuate, doing what they do while wasting no power whatsoever. Midrange drivers are responsible for consuming roughly 35% of the amplifier's output during play. If those drivers need to be attenuated 3dB, that's a significant amount of power being transformed into heat - which is wasteful and inefficient.

I was out at the diyaudio forum reading through old threads dealing with questions related to attenuation. It seems that everyone really hates L-pads but considers them a necessary evil. "If only we could find some affordable autotransformers and do it the way JBL did it - but they're too hard to find and too expensive!" So, if resistors are so great, why does everyone on the other side of the fence hate them so much? Too bad the thread was five years old and they don't tolerate any form of self-promotion.

All of this phase shift bullshit is starting to get under my skin. I can see where it would add complexity with filters employing high part counts, but my most complex filter uses 7 parts, of which the midrange circuit has 3, one of which is the autotransformer itself.

What the curves don't show with the use of resistors is the impact on the amplifier's power, damping factor, and distortion behavior.

Autotransformers deliver better performance, and with it , better sound too. Like I said earlier, I tried l-pads once, and I wasn't impressed.

Edited May 25, 2014 by DeanG

[JJkizak]

After installing the Dean crossovers in my 1965 K-horns and Cornwall the Khorns were balanced (I always had to boost one channel up with the balance control)

and the Cornwall actually sounded like a speaker again. The Cornwall had very low output with little high end and that was the principal reason I upgraded them.

My actual hearing response is 19HZ to 10KHZ and not one HZ over. To tell you that there was an improvement in the sound quality is dauntingly suggestive but I

thought there was. The Radioschack meter showed response all the way to 21KHZ but dammed if I could here it. (Test CD). There was also a peak around 9KHZ

with the CT-125's but the equalizer took care of that. All I can say if you have 20 year old speakers it is wise to upgrade to get the best components in there and

what no one has talked about is "power handling capability". I listen to mine at a crushing 98 DB SPL with the bass set somewhere to 12 to 16 db hotter than flat

with the equalizer in the 30 to 60 HZ range. And if I use the PLC-II position on the Denon that center Cornwall is heading for orbit. I can't personally say that If I used

newer designed stock Klipsch networks that there would be a difference but I am happy with what I have.

JJK

[wvu80]

Regarding the stock xovers... I've always wondered... do they have "crossover building day" at the factory and several people sit around and make them for all the production or, do they farm them out to another company? Another country?

Who actually heats the solder and melts the wax?

My CF-4's, two-way WTW have XO's made (assembled?) in Mexico.

Edited May 25, 2014 by wvu80