Heresy I capacitor recommendations?

[Deang]

Doing a search I just found out that Bob Stout passed away in 2008. Sad. I learned a lot from him and never even thanked him.

I was looking for the LDSG site, which I couldn't find. I stumbled upon some discussion on another forum and found out the LDSG stuff was saved and archived. If you've never seen this stuff, it's quite a treat.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071215183616/ldsg.snippets.org/idx.php

Bob Stout on capacitors:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080308210050/http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-ec.php

All of these type guys accepted the idea of noise/distortion caused by capacitors. Distortion is accumulative, and low level distortion from passive components is definitely audible in high efficiency systems. This is why I won't use Solens, which have poor lead terminations and are poorly constructed. It took me almost a decade to get Al to quit using them in critical positions.

There is a lot said that I'm sure Bob would agree with, and we don't want to miss the emphasis and importance that Bob Stout places on low ESR. However, neither should we ignore his statements related to measureable noise and his acceptance of the subjective experience.

I am not an EE, so though I can find what appears to be volumes of information related to capacitor induced distortion, I don't have the knowledge base required to decipher it all -- it's pretty complex stuff to me.

Bob and I basically disagree about one or two things, and I'm squarely on his side of the fence with everything else. So, you won't find cable stands under my speaker wire or see me telling someone it takes 400 hours for their capacitors to break in. There are a lot of new people out here, and I think it's important for everyone to know that Bob and I have a very good relationship. So, if it looks like we're going after each other, it's more tongue in cheek than anything else. I need to be honest though and admit that sometimes I'm somewhat envious of the attention and recommendations he garners on the site. With that said, I think his networks would sound better if he knocked a dB or two off of the squawker output. This isn't a criticism of his and Michael's work, just an opinion based on my personal experience with using low ESR caps in the old networks. This of course means I agree with Craig, which is almost as irritating to me as agreeing with Bob.

[Deang]

Thanks Dean,

I had dropped the mids down a bit, to balance the overall tone. Seemed a bit forward, and the bass sounds more full now It's been this way for a couple of years, but hadn't really thought about it until everone was saying you need to change the cap value, or risk damaging your k55.

Bruce

EDIT: Looking at the drawing, I will have to see how I actually have it wired.

I'd never really thought about this before, but I think as long as you leave the negative lead from the K55 tied to tap 0 on the autoformer, you might actually be able to drop to tap 3 without moving the crossover point much at all. For the definitive answer, we would of course have to ask Al. I think you're okay, I'll give him a call here in a bit and ask, I've got some other stuff I need to talk to him about anyways.

[RRFL]

Doing a search I just found out that Bob Stout passed away in 2008. Sad. I learned a lot from him and never even thanked him.

I was looking for the LDSG site, which I couldn't find. I stumbled upon some discussion on another forum and found out the LDSG stuff was saved and archived. If you've never seen this stuff, it's quite a treat.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071215183616/ldsg.snippets.org/idx.php

Bob Stout on capacitors:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080308210050/http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-ec.php

All of these type guys accepted the idea of noise/distortion caused by capacitors. Distortion is accumulative, and low level distortion from passive components is definitely audible in high efficiency systems. This is why I won't use Solens, which have poor lead terminations and are poorly constructed. It took me almost a decade to get Al to quit using them in critical positions.

There is a lot said that I'm sure Bob would agree with, and we don't want to miss the emphasis and importance that Bob Stout places on low ESR. However, neither should we ignore his statements related to measureable noise and his acceptance of the subjective experience.

I am not an EE, so though I can find what appears to be volumes of information related to capacitor induced distortion, I don't have the knowledge base required to decipher it all -- it's pretty complex stuff to me.

Bob and I basically disagree about one or two things, and I'm squarely on his side of the fence with everything else. So, you won't find cable stands under my speaker wire or see me telling someone it takes 400 hours for their capacitors to break in. There are a lot of new people out here, and I think it's important for everyone to know that Bob and I have a very good relationship. So, if it looks like we're going after each other, it's more tongue in cheek than anything else. I need to be honest though and admit that sometimes I'm somewhat envious of the attention and recommendations he garners on the site. With that said, I think his networks would sound better if he knocked a dB or two off of the squawker output. This isn't a criticism of his and Michael's work, just an opinion based on my personal experience with using low ESR caps in the old networks. This of course means I agree with Craig, which is almost as irritating to me as agreeing with Bob.

First of all, I reckon the debates you guys have about the fine details are very interesting. Just in testing my memory and doing A/B comparisons from the 70's to now. I saw something back then on oil filled caps that I concluded "stability in service was a key advantage" and that's why PWK used them. Now, all this additional information you have provided is most valuable to me. One thing that I have always found interesting is how different speakers sound when compared to each other and then the personal preference that leads to often "passionate" choice of the speaker and then the tweaking. Why is it that I am totally not impressed with reflex enclosures and yet others think they are the best? What we are looking for is what we will find.

[Marvel]

With that said, I think his networks would sound better if he knocked a dB or two off of the squawker output.

I found I had to do this with my LS when I built the new networks. The mids were way too hot for my taste. Dropping the mids also made the bass seem fuller.

Why is it that I am totally not impressed with reflex enclosures and yet others think they are the best?

I think most people are used to hearing reflex enclosures, so the horn loaded models don't sound'right' to them.

Bruce

[mark1101]

Dean,

You probably remember a few years back when I was heavily into passives and experimenting with different caps, that you built several networks for me. Back then the popular thing was the "new" film and foil and poly caps like AudioCap Theta and AuriCap.

I went through a lot of different caps "and money" and found just what you and Craig have said. These type of caps open the speaker up with more top end crispness and clarity...........but also volume. You then have a speaker out of balance and hot on teh top end.

But if you remember...........what we did was simply tone down the squawker (like mentioned above with a lower tap setting) but also add a tweeter attenuator. This brought things back into balance but with the added crispness, openness and clarity.

I still use the networks you built in my cornwalls to this day, and I just sold a pair of lascalas with your quite exotic ALK Jrs. with AudioCap Thetas and tweeter attenuators. In those you used 12 ga. copper foil inductors for the woofer. When I hooked them up at my buddies house with his vintage Pioneer receiver I almost wanted to take them back home......but I needed the money!

The point is that you can attenuate the drivers that become to forward as a result of more transparent caps. This allows you to enjoy the new found clarity, crispness, and openness without the top end getting to forward.

I suppose from a cost standpoint you can just use less transparent caps.

[Deang]

I still prefer the Thetas and Auricaps in the Super AA and Type AA builds - sounds really good. OIMP V-caps are the bomb too, big time. A little expensive, but it is what it is, and I'm done apologizing for the cost of this stuff. Anyways, remember that in Al's designs, moving around on the autoformer doesn't mess with the crossover point. With the vintage designs, you're kind of stuck unless you adjust the capacitor value of the input cap. Attenuation only addresses part of the issue though. Sure, depending on what driver we're talking about, we can knock the squawker down a dB or two (I think 3dB is too much) -- but you know as well I do that a network loaded with brand X will cause the loudspeaker to sound different than if loaded with brand Y or Z. Obviously there are a lot contributing factors, but I think I'm tired of trying to figure them all out, tired of trying to pretend I don't hear the things I do, tired of defending my choices, and so very tired of worrying about what people think. I built with Jensens for about a half a year once. Everyone liked them, including myself. I ran them in a set of Type A's for a long time. I quit because I got tired of Al and Bob beating me up over it. I love both of those guys, but I need to stay true to myself. So, I'm going to build a couple of things and send them out to some people with good ears and a lot of experience, and we'll see.

[NOSValves]

I still prefer the Thetas and Auricaps in the Super AA and Type AA builds - sounds really good. OIMP V-caps are the bomb too, big time. A little expensive, but it is what it is, and I'm done apologizing for the cost of this stuff. Anyways, remember that in Al's designs, moving around on the autoformer doesn't mess with the crossover point. With the vintage designs, you're kind of stuck unless you adjust the capacitor value of the input cap. Attenuation only addresses part of the issue though. Sure, depending on what driver we're talking about, we can knock the squawker down a dB or two (I think 3dB is too much) -- but you know as well I do that a network loaded with brand X will cause the loudspeaker to sound different than if loaded with brand Y or Z. Obviously there are a lot contributing factors, but I think I'm tired of trying to figure them all out, tired of trying to pretend I don't hear the things I do, tired of defending my choices, and so very tired of worrying about what people think. I built with Jensens for about a half a year once. Everyone liked them, including myself. I ran them in a set of Type A's for a long time. I quit because I got tired of Al and Bob beating me up over it. I love both of those guys, but I need to stay true to myself. So, I'm going to build a couple of things and send them out to some people with good ears and a lot of experience, and we'll see.

Send them to Bob he can put some nasty switches in the signal path and AB test them []

Folks I like Bob also and think he is a stand up guy. I just can not agree with his assessment of the sonic character of capacitors..........

[BEC]

I still prefer the Thetas and Auricaps in the Super AA and Type AA builds - sounds really good. OIMP V-caps are the bomb too, big time. A little expensive, but it is what it is, and I'm done apologizing for the cost of this stuff. Anyways, remember that in Al's designs, moving around on the autoformer doesn't mess with the crossover point. With the vintage designs, you're kind of stuck unless you adjust the capacitor value of the input cap. Attenuation only addresses part of the issue though. Sure, depending on what driver we're talking about, we can knock the squawker down a dB or two (I think 3dB is too much) -- but you know as well I do that a network loaded with brand X will cause the loudspeaker to sound different than if loaded with brand Y or Z. Obviously there are a lot contributing factors, but I think I'm tired of trying to figure them all out, tired of trying to pretend I don't hear the things I do, tired of defending my choices, and so very tired of worrying about what people think. I built with Jensens for about a half a year once. Everyone liked them, including myself. I ran them in a set of Type A's for a long time. I quit because I got tired of Al and Bob beating me up over it. I love both of those guys, but I need to stay true to myself. So, I'm going to build a couple of things and send them out to some people with good ears and a lot of experience, and we'll see.

Send them to Bob he can put some nasty switches in the signal path and AB test them

Folks I like Bob also and think he is a stand up guy. I just can not agree with his assessment of the sonic character of capacitors..........

Well, thank you Craig. I would say that if capacitors have any sonic character, that is a character defect.

[NOSValves]

Well, thank you Craig. I would say that if capacitors have any sonic character, that is a character defect.

Well quit using all those defective parts!!

[OO1]

now that is the best answer I ever heard - there is no subtitute for experience -

[BassBlaster&TweeterHeater]

I'm new here. I am doing some maintenance on my Heresy's and I have some questions. How do you know what "series" of Heresy's you have? (I've seen 1 thru 4) the first pair I'm working over have a "T" in the serial. I have taken the screw terminals off and replaced them with jack posts, next is a recap of the crossovers. Any advice on this?

[Budman]

8 hours ago, BassBlaster&TweeterHeater said:

I'm new here. I am doing some maintenance on my Heresy's and I have some questions. How do you know what "series" of Heresy's you have? (I've seen 1 thru 4) the first pair I'm working over have a "T" in the serial. I have taken the screw terminals off and replaced them with jack posts, next is a recap of the crossovers. Any advice on this?

 

welcome, the T stands for 1979 which would make them Heresy 1's

 

[The Dude]

46 minutes ago, Budman said:

 

welcome, the T stands for 1979 which would make them Heresy 1's

 

The good year with good components.  I only say this as that is what all three of mine are.  Maybe someday I will put some of those expensive caps in mine and see how they sound....someday. 

[jimjimbo]

9 hours ago, BassBlaster&TweeterHeater said:

I'm new here. I am doing some maintenance on my Heresy's and I have some questions. How do you know what "series" of Heresy's you have? (I've seen 1 thru 4) the first pair I'm working over have a "T" in the serial. I have taken the screw terminals off and replaced them with jack posts, next is a recap of the crossovers. Any advice on this?

Which type crossovers are in them?  I'm assuming either E or E2.

 

I have been using these lately with excellent results.

 

https://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-22uf-800v-z-superior-capacitor--027-482

 

Or, you could try these which are very good as well.

 

http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/audiocap-theta-2uf-200vdc-p-69

 

 

[Rolox]

for crossover I really like Jantzen Crosscaps, they are good and not expensive.

[yamahaSHO]

The Heresy's I bought  already had the caps replaced...  It wasn't the prettiest of jobs, but it worked.  The previous owner used Solens, but since I am redoing them, I picked up some Sonicaps.  

 

[thebes]

I like NOS Russian PIO's in my Heresy 1's. There is a guy in the Ukraine who sells tested pairs on ebay.

[BassBlaster&TweeterHeater]

Hey Guy's! I bought the some Solens (I know! everyone is rolling their eyes) These don't have a polarity indicated on one end or the other. Is that important?

[MechEngVic]

11 minutes ago, BassBlaster&TweeterHeater said:

Hey Guy's! I bought the some Solens (I know! everyone is rolling their eyes) These don't have a polarity indicated on one end or the other. Is that important?

It's probably more important on a circuit board where there are a lot of energy fields that can interact with the capacitor. In a passive crossover there is much less interference.

[BassBlaster&TweeterHeater]

Since these Solen caps are physically smaller if I remove the old caps am I throwing the interior volume of the cabinet out of whack?