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Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

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4 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

reveals that he has come to the conclusion that designing his amplifiers based on lowest possible distortion of past standards isn’t the best sounding.

The love of specs can chase you from place to place. While I am very technical in some areas I decided to take a shortcut here where it comes to amplification. I have owned many speakers but only five different amps. The first time I hooked up an old 800 watt per channel Peavey amp to my LSI's I was stunned at how much better percussion was. I had followed audio recommendations online and bought an Onkyo based on reviews. It was nice and had connectivity I liked but just did not make those LSI's sing. Today I have an Integra 50.4 which came with a ton of kudo reviews. Bought it mainly for trying room correction and using REW and UMikes to help analyze the tweeters I was making. I also have a Crown xli800 which is by far a better sound for me than the Integra which sits there dusty most of the time. Call me a tightwad but if I am spending a ton of money it will go primarily into the speakers and then into commercial gear of good quality. I have heard setups with Macs and other high end bits and pieces and they leave me unmoved especially when I look at the price tag to get them.

  Where I am heading with this is if I wanted to hear real live performances in my shop maybe I should try what live sound people use and just bypass all the technical jargon and opinions and reviews. I might be wrong in this approach but when I fire up the Crown with the MCM 1900 or the KPT-456's using pro amps just seems to make those babies really sing. When I get the Super MWM's done with that horn length I have to venture into DSP but it will be with two Crown xli's and the Integra super duper whiz bang great review deal will be a pre-amp only.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

Where I am heading with this is if I wanted to hear real live performances in my shop maybe I should try what live sound people use and...

 

I am looking forward to reading about your Super MWM build and listening experience.

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2 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:

 

I am looking forward to reading about your Super MWM build and listening experience.

The Festool track saw came in Friday so I start this week.

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58 minutes ago, Dave A said:

The Festool track saw came in Friday so I start this week.

 

Nice!

 

 

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I think this thread tops anything that could have been fathomed in a hypothetical Klipsch political section and there is a stark resemblance in the threads essence. 

 

Anywho, no matter what side of the line in the sand you're on, Ignorance can be bliss and its demonstrated all around us. Im certainly glad I have a few traits of it here and there.

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1 hour ago, Max2 said:

I think this thread tops anything that could have been fathomed in a hypothetical Klipsch political section and there is a stark resemblance in the threads essence.

 

Maybe, but nothing like the old 2-channel Section days - I was just getting warmed up. 

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. o O (I prefer mono listening) ,,, I like it because I have two ear's... and separation is not essential in that stereo seems like a gimmick, so the reason has no unlikeness, moreover, imagination, such as 28 subjects in a dbt that failed, whereas 10 were denied due credit for their observation...

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5 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

Here. Let me help out. Folks should use the  search feature and they will find everything they need in this thread and others. Btw...Now that you're back, can we open up that Facebook thread? Seriously. Now that some time has passed can we rethink some slightly political that doesn't get personal topics? Just askin' and if the answer is no I can dig it, but...:) 

"Slightly political" is that like "almost pregnant" or."quasi religious"?

 

It's not up to me, I don't make the rules, I'm just told what has to happen to keep this place alive.

 

.You clearly have the ability to use finesse to discuss things from a purely historical or Congressional procedure perspectuve, but you can't help yourself, or others beat you to the punch and feel "well that guy got to say his peace about the current state of affairs so I should be able to say my piece."

 

All I can tell you is find, or create, another outlet to discuss politics.  You could start a PM with the old crew, you can add as many people as you like in a PM and discuss away.  But what's the fun in that when the whole world can't see it.

 

I think yor just going to have to come to grips with the fact that a public forum run by a public corporation isn't compatible with discussions.regarding race, religion or politics whether it be slightly. 

 

I guess you could try a topic like the Lincoln-Douglas debates, or the Bull Moose party, and lsee what happes from there.

 

 

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This is the fastest growing thread without being locked.  Not bad.... Petty close though.

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Good morning everyone!! Well here we are day 20 and dog-gone-it, or D/G/it, I have set my linear down somewhere and can't find it. You ever have mornings like this?

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11 hours ago, Dave A said:

Yah know what OD? I am not quite certain you own anything or have done anything you claim to be honest. But then I am part of the dishonest and jealous and deceitful quagmire all in the audio world find themselves except for you. OD the 1,000,000 lumen laser focused light of truth shining on the the sordid world of audio.

 

I’ll tell you what Dave A:

 

Assume I shared NONE of my own personal experiences regarding testing speaker break-in, or comparing my Mac to my AudioSource, etc…  ..Or, if it pleases you, go ahead and assume i lied about all of it.  How would that change your response to my recommendation to beginners, which I'll restate below as it seems to be getting twisted by some::

 

To Beginners, my advice:

  1. Your audio system quality is mainly about speakers, their placement, and room acoustics.
  2. The audible differences made by rest of your components, including amplifier cd player, DAC, cables/ power cords, power conditioner, etc.. are negligible.  So negligible, in fact, that there is considerable debate whether they are audible at all.  To wit: There was once a $10,000 reward offered to any golden eared audiophile who could consistently distinguish b/w two S/S amplifiers.  No one claimed the prize.
  3. Yes, people offer strong, highly opinionated anecdotal accounts here of how they changed X, then heard Y,  but credible, empirical evidence that these differences were not merely the result of expectation bias is sparse at best.
    • Put another way, just how relevant could such differences be if there is ANY debate at all about their existence?  If they were audible and they mattered they surely would be plain to the ear of every (non-hearing impaired) music lover.
  4. There are still good reasons to be selective about gear.  Chose an amp with enough power to drive your speakers to desired levels without distorting.  And chose one that offers the features you want and the look/ build-quality you want.  But set aside any notions that you must go about choosing amplifiers, cables, cd players, etc. the way a wine connoisseur goes about choosing wine.

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Posted (edited)

Trying to work this forum.  Disregard.

Edited by glens
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On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:06 PM, Zen Traveler said:

Our preferences don't work the way AB/X testing works. That's so obvious it is silly. 

 

ABX tests for differences, not preferences.

 

ABX testing: Audio will be played. Press the button, do you hear any difference, or not?

 

AB testing: Audio will be played. Switch from A to B, which do you prefer?

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ODS being serious here for a minute and will basically repeat what Jimbo said to you many pages ago. We all love talking about audio here and many of us reach differing conclusions about what we like and why. What is not appreciated is someone who just barges in here from nowhere and starts telling us how stupid we are for our choices and make no mistake that is basically where you end up every time. You even have this mindset regarding things you have never heard but you know better anyway. You even know more than Bonehead and Vandersteen! So rather than treating your thread seriously as it could have been it has become a delightful circus of the bizarre and you reap what you sew.

 

  In the mean time day 20 is off the starting line and looks to deliver all I could hope for.

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14 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

24 bit/192 Khz. are a waste of time and money, even it they are done on Blue Ray standard media. Talk to Dr. Mark Waldrep of AIX about that. I did.

 

13 hours ago, robert_kc said:

 

Another topic that is hotly debated.  

 

...

 

The assertion that people can’t hear the difference between CD and hi-res in a double-blind test is like the assertion that people can’t hear the difference in amps in a double-blind test.  We’ll be here for another 50 pages debating it …

 

If a modern recording is recorded and mastered at 24bit/192kHz, why would you buy a consumer deliverable that has been down-sampled into 30+ year-old storage technology (i.e., 16bit/44.1kHz Redbook CD), vs. buying the recording in its native format (e.g., Pure Audio Blu-ray disc or 24/192 FLAC download)?  Similarly, if the recording was captured in hi-res DSD – why not buy the SACD or DSD download, vs. transcoding it and down-sampling it into 16bit/44.1kHz PCM (i.e. CD)?

 

It's not my intention to speak for Claude, but I think I understand what he was saying and that you did not.

 

In spending some time going through a bit of forum history, trying to get the lay of the land, so to speak, I believe I'd seen him say at one point that anything over 24/96 is a waste.  That's not meant to be a quote, merely a remembrance on my part.

 

As a result of your reply to him (it wasn't google but for the sake of simplicity...) I "googled" "Dr. Mark Waldrep" and stumbled upon a couple interesting links.  Evidently last summer he'd conducted an informal test for which he created files from some of his native hi-res work.  By down-sampling to redbook he offered for comparison the result to the original.  Well, here's a couple of links.  They're fairly short reads.  First, the initial "challenge", then some initial results, and finally, part 2 of the results with a classic correspondence which ensued.

 

At any rate, I guess this is in part what Claude had in mind.  A fair bit different, perhaps, from what you'd rebutted?

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2 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

I’ll tell you what Dave A:

 

Assume I shared NONE of my own personal experiences regarding testing speaker break-in, or comparing my Mac to my AudioSource, etc…  ..Or, if it pleases you, go ahead and assume i lied about all of it.  How would that change your response to my recommendation to beginners, which I'll restate below as it seems to be getting twisted by some::

 

To Beginners, my advice:

  1. Your audio system quality is mainly about speakers, their placement, and room acoustics.
  2. The audible differences made by rest of your components, including amplifier cd player, DAC, cables/ power cords, power conditioner, etc.. are negligible.  So negligible, in fact, that there is considerable debate whether they are audible at all.  To wit: There was once a $10,000 reward offered to any golden eared audiophile who could consistently distinguish b/w two S/S amplifiers.  No one claimed the prize.
  3. Yes, people offer strong, highly opinionated anecdotal accounts here of how they changed X, then heard Y,  but credible, empirical evidence that these differences were not merely the result of expectation bias is sparse at best.
    • Put another way, just how relevant could such differences be if there is ANY debate at all about their existence?  If they were audible and they mattered they surely would be plain to the ear of every (non-hearing impaired) music lover.
  4. There are still good reasons to be selective about gear.  Chose an amp with enough power to drive your speakers to desired levels without distorting.  And chose one that offers the features you want and the look/ build-quality you want.  But set aside any notions that you must go about choosing amplifiers, cables, cd players, etc. the way a wine connoisseur goes about choosing wine.

A few pages back you accused me of attacking you.

 

My response was that attacks are not my way of doing things, that a differing opinion is not an attack and to please provide an example so that, if the example is clearly an attack, I can offer the appropriate apology.

 

I do not believe that anything I have said to you on this thread could reasonably be construed as an attack and am still waiting for your example.

 

To your revised advice to newbies:

 

I have no issue with us having differing opinions on what is or isn't audible, on ABX/DBT testing, etc.

 

The issue is that you represent your opinions with great authority and as fact when, in fact, your statements on what is or isn't audible, on ABX/DBT testing, etc. are only your opinions.

 

And this is my opinion.

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1 hour ago, glens said:

 

 

It's not my intention to speak for Claude, but I think I understand what he was saying and that you did not.

 

In spending some time going through a bit of forum history, trying to get the lay of the land, so to speak, I believe I'd seen him say at one point that anything over 24/96 is a waste.  That's not meant to be a quote, merely a remembrance on my part.

 

As a result of your reply to him (it wasn't google but for the sake of simplicity...) I "googled" "Dr. Mark Waldrep" and stumbled upon a couple interesting links.  Evidently last summer he'd conducted an informal test for which he created files from some of his native hi-res work.  By down-sampling to redbook he offered for comparison the result to the original.  Well, here's a couple of links.  They're fairly short reads.  First, the initial "challenge", then some initial results, and finally, part 2 of the results with a classic correspondence which ensued.

 

At any rate, I guess this is in part what Claude had in mind.  A fair bit different, perhaps, from what you'd rebutted?

 

Sorry, I don’t understand your point.

 

If it helps to clarify my opinion, I’ll offer newbies the same advice regarding the “hi-res controversy” that I offered regarding the “amplifier controversy”:   listen for yourself and decide for yourself. 

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15 hours ago, robert_kc said:

All new classical music recordings are recorded and mastered in hi-res, and almost all are available in a hi-res consumer deliverable (i.e., SACD, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray or hi-res download).  And I find that these usually have excellent audio quality, and I enjoy them immensely. 

Yes, of course, if they are MASTERED that way in the original recording. They do sound better. However, that is NOT what I was referring to. I'm saying if a pop or rock recording from Analog oritinals, which have deteriorated since decades have gone by and are repackaged as "high bit, high res. whatever" it's mostly BS. They just took a gallon of music and poured it into a 55 gallon drum, but it's still only a gallon. 96/24 Mastering gives you a potetntial 130 plus db dynamic range, which is way beyond what is needed for even symphonic recordings. But putting 50 year old analog tape into that media is a waste of money beyond even the Red Book CD standard. I'd rather take the same budget for "hi res" recordings and buy twice as much music on media that is cheaper. It's the quality of the MASTERING that's most important and certainly Klipsch recordings from the 1957 prove the point very well, but to go beyond 96/24 on ANYTHING mastered yesterday or then would only entertain BATS (the "bats" thing I got from Tomlinson Holman of THX fame). That being said, it is quite possible that those "hi res" sites fiddle with the mix just enough to make the higher bit versions sound different and perceived as "better" and fool a whole bunch of people.  But you can do that with free sofware called Audacity, which is a free download. But that pretty much like putting perfume on a pig or spraying cologne over a pile of Bovine Sediment.

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Using content downloaded from a commercial download site is always problematic because virtually all of the files do not exhibit better than CD fidelity." Mark Waldrep of AIX.

 

I own several of his recordings on Blue Ray media and they are Superb! I met the man on 2 ocasions and listened to his presentations at Axpona in the Audiotium and in his room with $1,000,000 German speakers systems on loan. He certainly knows what he is talking about and can demonstrate it. The argument ended for me about 4 1/2 years ago, the same year that I heard Sadurni horns, whereby Nora Jones literally brought tears to my eyes through those speakers, but that's another story.

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