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Chief bonehead

Home theater spk vs 2 channel spk

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Probably not much if any difference in design.  I would not hesitate to use any main speaker I own(Heresys, Heresy IIs, RB-75s, RF-63s) in either duties.

 

Bill

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On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 9:27 PM, Chief bonehead said:

What is the difference. Really. 

 

My full range home theater speakers qualify as 2 channel speakers when I press a button on the AVR that is labeled STEREO, but there are some specialty home theater speaker packages designed with a subwoofer requirement.

 

My favorite example;  "Klipsch THX Ultra2 loudspeakers are optimized for the THX crossover setting. (Technically, that’s an 80Hz crossover with a 12dB/octave high-pass section feeding the amplifiers for the satellite speakers and a 24dB/octave low-pass section feeding the subwoofer amplifier.) All THX-certified receivers and processors incorporate this crossover in their bass-management systems."

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I don't know what technically is the difference or what requirements might drive both genres, but some of us don't really have any choice to use one system for both jobs... because both jobs are important.

I think Heritage does an amazing job for HT, but it's expensive in comparrison to reference.

Thanks for the question R...

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Many HT speakers are skinny , or small, or both. My take is a HT speaker may not cover the full range. A sub will fill in lower freq. and provide a fuller sound in lower region. An HT speaker will excel at effects with great accuracy, a gunshot or something falling etc...What I call a 2 channel speaker needs to be big and go down to 20's in freq.response. That's the reason I like Klipsch for HT, very accurate, and they can do music well also, even if a sub is needed. In my car hole I have some Cerwin AT-15s , they provide full range and monster bass, no sub needed, at all, and the db levels can be insane with a big amp.

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Good quality sound is good quality sound....Insofar as what is different the obvious is the difficulty in placing extra speakers for surround sound in movies and in music. There again, I listen to a lot of multichannel music but appreciate movies a few times a month and feel I have the best of both worlds. :)

 

Fwiw, I think the practical difference is related to footprint/placement issues for mostly the center and surrounds and then size becomes an issue. Otoh, Klipsch upper end Reference and Palladiums seem to have adjusted to the growing quality Home Theater market and a couple of subwoofers can make up for not having such a robust LF on the other speakers and skinnier Mains for two channel benefit as well....That's my take and hope all is well Chief Bonehead.

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:biggrin2:...

 

Well, you can usually get away with poorer performing loudspeakers when playing 5.1 than stereo...or mono especially. 

 

As a side note, I think a lot of folks playing with SET (high output Z) amplifiers and high efficiency stereo loudspeakers are actually trying to do what 5.1 arrays do best: to provide a sense of depth of soundstage--immersion and envelopment.  If you try that with K-402s around you in a 5.1, you've got a "depth of soundstage" performance that beats the crud out of anything else in my experience--including and especially vis-à-vis stereo only (IMHO).  But just using fairly mundane loudspeakers in a 5.1 sounds pretty good--sort of like Bose 901s in stereo, but without the complete loss of imaging that occurs with them.

 

I believe that it was in Hope that I found that if you want to hear how the loudspeaker performs--play it mono.  Then you'll hear it clearly.  I believe that also shows up in some of the studies referenced in Toole's book comparing loudspeaker types.  That's the chapter where Toole is talking about planar loudspeakers and how they fall apart in blind listener trials when played mono-only...as compared to monopole loudspeakers (box-type DR loudspeakers).

 

Chris

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Dude!  You should be telling us! 

 

I have been considering changing my rear channel Heresies to WDST surrounds (RP-502S or RS-62II).  Whadda ya think?  Packaging means the surround speakers will mount on the wall easier and thus be higher.  Reflected sound might be more enveloping.  Hey!  Maybe an actual use for Blose! 

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On 2/4/2019 at 11:27 PM, Chief bonehead said:

What is the difference. Really. 

My direct answer to what should be the difference, is different voicing.

 

A stereo speaker should be full range assuming it will be part of a 2.0 setup.

 

A similar L/R multi-channel speaker should not be full range, instead focusing on ultra clear and dynamic mid-bass with the clear design philosophy that the sub-bass will be covered with a powerful sub woofer.

 

 

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I think that RF-7II excel at music and home theater.  I haven’t heard the newer RF-7III - if I was in the market today, I’d probably buy RF-7III.   (Heritage speakers such as La Scala are too wide for my spaces.)

 

I love classical music, which involves natural instruments performing together live in a purpose-built venue (i.e., symphony hall or opera house, with no sound reinforcement system).   IME, the RF-7II are capable of reproducing this natural sound, when driven by the right tube amps.    (IME, RF-7II can sound harsh with solid-state amps, and can sound bright with KT88 tube amps.)

    

Large scale orchestral music can have tremendous dynamic range, and significant bass content (e.g., bass drum, pipe organ, and multiple double bass).   Modern hi-res recordings can deliver classical music’s dynamic range and powerful bass.

 

My basement 4.2 system can deliver a near-live-classical-concert-experience.  Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II.  A single rear speaker is a Klipsch RF-7.   Subwoofers:  SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW.  These four tower speakers plus two subwoofers provide plenty of acoustical power in this average size listening room.  Recently I’ve been watching/listening to surround-sound Blu-ray video recordings of classical concerts (in addition to surround-sound opera Blu-rays) on my basement system, and I find that RF-7II and two stereo tube amps (one for L&R, one for center and single rear) provide excellent audio quality.   This system’s ability to deliver dynamic impact across the full frequency range makes this system well suited for classical music and movies.  (Unless perhaps someone wants to shake the floor when a movie’s LFE features an earthquake.)

 

Source:  Oppo UDP-205.   The Oppo UDP-205 provides "bass management" - i.e., a built-in crossover, and a connection for a powered subwoofer.   With Oppo's bass management, the low frequencies are off-loaded from the main amp and speakers, thereby facilitating greater overall dynamics.   The Oppo universal players provide analog line-level RCA connections for 2.0, 2.1, and 5.1, thereby facilitating direct connection of vintage tube amps.  The Oppo UDP-205 will play any modern digital format for music and movies (discs, downloads, and audio streaming via Chromecast Audio connected via TOSLINK), making the Oppo universal player well suited for music and movies.

 

Here's the tube amps that I have in my basement system:  Scott 272 (EL34), Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO (single-ended-pentode (SEP) power amp currently equipped with 6L6GC), Scott 222C (7189), McIntosh MX110Z tuner/preamp, Fisher KX-200 (7591), Scott 296 (6L6GC), Pilot SA-260 (EL34), Scott LK150 (KT88).   A patch panel allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp(s) I want, and F/F RCA cables enable me to connect an amp to the Oppo, and a power amp to the MX110Z (if I choose to have a pre-amp in the audio chain). 

 

IMO, my basement system sounds great for music and movies.   (I have 2 other hi-fi systems (2.1) that do double duty for movies and music, one featuring Palladium P-37F, the other Snell Type CV.)

 

Moreover, my favorite format for music is Blu-ray discs featuring high-def video and hi-res surround-sound (DTS-HD MA 5.1).   Therefore, for me there really is no distinction between movies and music.  Following are two posts discussing Blu-ray audio/video recordings of classical orchestral music.  (Additionally, there are many Blu-ray audio/video recordings of opera and ballet.)  

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/181673-tvmovie-audio-superior-to-music/&do=findComment&comment=2351668

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/181673-tvmovie-audio-superior-to-music/&do=findComment&comment=2352074

 

Many modern recordings of classical music feature hi-def video in addition to hi-res surround-sound audio.  Those modern classical recordings that don’t feature video usually feature hi-res surround sound (e.g., SACD or Pure Audio Blu-ray), and the HDTV is useful in navigating the recording’s menus.

 

Bottom line:  for me, there’s no distinction between a speaker’s suitability for music vs. movies, or a hi-fi system’s suitability for music vs. movies.   Based on the genre of music I like, home playback systems for music and movies have already converged.

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On 2/4/2019 at 11:27 PM, Chief bonehead said:

What is the difference. Really. 

 I was under the impression you guys (engineers) might target a different dispersion for home theater. Maybe I am wrong on this, but are HT speakers typically in the ballpark of 90 deg horizontal and 60 deg vertical (like a "typical"  2 channel speaker)

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Is there anything with the ability to reproduce increased transients because most stereos are made to produce musical content and most Home theater have to produce high intensity explosions, low frequency effects and things of that nature... I've always had a, "feeling", that speed was important in HT and smoothness was important in musical reproduction.

I drive my speakers with different topologies... class D for HT and class A for stereo, but the speakers are the same for both.

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It may appear, given PrestomTom comment, imlo (please excuse) that essentially with design the HT speaker could well pass or be preferred over an Heritage of same volume size. Appearances may be an untold tale as to which you are hearing (A-B testing). Appearance may deceive. Thinking the Chief may have a motive for suggesting this topic. Not all but some have historically been 2 way design. Same with KG, which some may consider somewhat vintage/heritage, given age. Then the KLF,series which some may way consider a 2 channel concept in reality. Not to confound but, semi-loaded concept in design. Thanks...

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On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 10:27 PM, Chief bonehead said:

What is the difference. Really. 

Well, I found that my Jubs work really great as a 2 channel speaker.

 

And then I have found that my Jubs work great as my HT front 2 speakers also.

 

Have enjoyed them as both! 

So I have to assume you would agree with this same set up!

I mean, since you made me my Jubs and all a long while back.

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The only challenge is to find other speakers that can come close to keeping up with the Jubs in the front 2 spots on L and R.

Have used Fortes, LaScallas and Khorns for rears.  The larger the better they seemed to do.

Have used both Palladium 27 C in front, and a LaScalla up front also.  Both worked pretty well.

Ultimate set up would be Jub x 5, if I had the room and cashola.

Or Jubs x 3 up front, and then the new 396's as surrounds and rears for a 7 channel set up.

with a 1502 or 1802 somehow in the mix also!

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To my way of thinking, a quality speaker is a quality speaker. PWK’s four principles would apply to both. So, no difference as far as I am concerned. 

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21 hours ago, billybob said:

. Then the KLF,series which some may way consider a 2 channel concept in reality.

I consider the 20's  and 30's  best candidates for my needs. We watch tv a lot in my den, 130 inch screen/avr/speakers. I need tv to sound good, concerts to be great, movies to be great and music plenty good enough to enjoy. The KLFs are perfect for the multi purpose (to me) needs. Lots of Klipsch speakers can do all those things really well, but some do better than others. I've had a bunch of speakers  in this spot, the 30's beat out the rest for me, and my wallet.

 

It would be great if there were a market for new KLF 30s with updated drivers/xover. I'm thinking those days are over.

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KLF 50’s!

 

Dual 15” woofers and a K-510 on top. Oh yeah.

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Dual 15" with a 510 on top is called a KPT-904.  A fabulous 2 channel or HT

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Decent Speakers should be able to do it all.

I don't need 2 different sets for HT and Music.

I do have is 2 different settings, 1 for HT,   different settings for Music.

Because TV and Movie sources sound different from Music Sources.

 

If I had the space for more gear--a separate room--I might use other gear.

A decent speaker system will be good enough for The Masses.

 

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