New hardware

[Travis In Austin]

Haley's comet has come and gone. Hope it makes it around again.

It won't, it finally imploded this time.

[Travis In Austin]

Dean,

Maybe you should start building Danley networks.

I thought you posted something about Danley using an active digital crossover recently?

[Bella]

I'm very satisfied with my Klipsch original crossovers. I envision a group of engineers using the stated goals of the project/speaker system and all of the other tools and information available to them. Including meetings and emails and collaborations. They are the ones that know what they want the system to sound like. I trust in that to the point that I have spent thousands upon thousands of my dollars buying their products and supporting their accomplishments. Any changes to that is just an attempt to obtain something other than what was originally meant and frankly, no one network designer in these forums is smarter or better equipped than the Klipsch engineers.

[Deang]

Jim, it's rare for technical people to agree on everything related to their field. There are a lot of ways to design a loudspeaker crossover. Sometimes, a designer will go to the edge, other times, there is something extra ordinary.

The Internet has a lot of places to learn straight filter design, there are also places that teach the basics of loudspeaker design. More advanced techqiues can be found off the reservation. No one designs filters without fully taking in account the behavior of the whole system. So, it's not just the filter, you really need to understand something about motors too. The average person, even one with good math skills, isn't likely to get much out of it with only cursory readings.

I posted the old link because John asked a question. The question was in response to a statement by Al. The statement was this:

"The very best way to transfer power is to match impedance."

I tried for a decade to understand this, and I used to tell Al, quite often actually - that John is not a dumb guy, that a guy who spends his life studying motors, might be trying to teach you something important.

jw to Al:

'"You must explain to me. To obtain a linear spl as a function of frequency a loudspeaker(s) cone must have a constant acceleration, independent of frequency, over the entire bandwidth of operation. That criteria is fact and is a topic that has been discussed for many years in the literature (Small, Locanthi as examples). Small, in fact, has a paper that explains how to preserve a constant voltage transfer in a passive network, the necessary rqmnt for constant cone acceleration. He states,

"consideration of the electroacoustic behavior of the common loudspeaker drivers leads to the general crossover network design rqmnt of constant total voltage transfer." (Proc. IREE Australia 31, 1970)

That said, how can a constant power transfer satisfy this criteria?

That force that drives the cone is

F = (Bl) E / (Zc + ((Bl)2/Zm))

where:

B = flux density in gap

l = length of wire in gap

Zc = dc resistance of coil and coil inductance

Zm = back EMF

E = driving voltage

What Small is saying is that above resonance (i.e. in the operating range), the force driving the cone is "essentially" a linear function of the driving voltage E.

Since the sound pressure is F/Sd (where Sd is the radiation area), the sound pressure then becomes a linear function of the driving voltage.

And like I said before, for a fixed sound pressure (i.e. flat fequency response) the only thing that is needed is a constant acceleration.

You fail to see that the integration of filter theory REQUIRES A FUNDAMENTAL UNDERSTANDING of the interelationship between the acoustic mass, the electrotransduction factor BL and how it is reflected back to the amplifier. You deal with everything from the "microwave" world which, last I looked, has NOTHING whatsover to do with sound reproduction.

I'll assume that you will NEVER be able to explain why the "constant impedance" network is an advantage from a SPL vs. frequency perspective and not a "microwave" perspective."'

Edited October 29, 2015 by Deang

[Deang]

The answer is, it doesn't. There is no inherent advantage of a constant impedance design over a conventional design. Like I said, it works, and the steep slope designs definitely offer some advantages if you listen absurdity loud or have a very big room. I believe the Universal has been ruined, but it's his to do with whatever he pleases.

With that said, I will never agree that the VC of a loudspeaker driver is part of the low pass of a network, that all capacitors sound the same", that there is no such thing as break-in, and that the guys at UT don't know how to build the best there is when you ask for "the best there is".

John's new top section probably sounds awesome. I wouldn't bother with any of the lower end options, though I'm sure they sound fine. I like that big tweeter and the film caps, naturally.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Deang

[jwc]

"""Bob Crites.  Bob, as usual, wins 1st place in the Civil Department. Even when he doesn't post stuff.""" 

 

That has been shown time and time again.   Bought a network from him a few years ago that isn't available from Klipsch and bought some of his woofers recently.  Star business.

[Deang]

He's a loudspeaker company now. He has to tread lightly.

[jimjimbo]

He's a loudspeaker company now. He has to tread lightly.

I think that's a rather insensitive statement.  Not to mention not entirely true.

[Jim Naseum]

The answer is, it doesn't. There is no inherent advantage of a constant impedance design over a conventional design. Like I said, it works, and the steep slope designs definitely offer some advantages if you listen absurdity loud or have a very big room. I believe the Universal has been ruined, but it's his to do with whatever he pleases.

Unfortunately, we now have only one side of that argument. Terms like "absurdly loud" and "big" are not scientific, and have no engineering meaning.

No one here now can refute the claim?

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[Deang]

Steeper slopes result in a reduction of power to the driver at any given point on the volume control. The effect is quite easy to hear - especially if you load a first order filter in the other loudspeaker.

I didn't mean to be insensitive, I just noticed he quit posting about the time he started selling loudspeakers. Maybe he just decided that posting here is a waste of time, which is about where I'm at -- no good deed goes unpunished.

[CECAA850]

Maybe he just decided that posting here is a waste of time

 

He posted 3 days ago and I thought he posted once in this thread.

[Wolfbane]

 

The answer is, it doesn't. There is no inherent advantage of a constant impedance design over a conventional design. Like I said, it works, and the steep slope designs definitely offer some advantages if you listen absurdity loud or have a very big room. I believe the Universal has been ruined, but it's his to do with whatever he pleases.

 

Unfortunately, we now have only one side of that argument. Terms like "absurdly loud" and "big" are not scientific, and have no engineering meaning.

No one here now can refute the claim?

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

I've come to conclusion, late it seems here, that like Basil Fawlty, 'whatever you do, don't mention the war'. 

 

Substitute 'XO design' for 'war'. 

[Jim Naseum]

I enjoy learning. The so called war is irrelevant to me. If egos are that sensitive to words, maybe being in business isn't for everyone?

There are some fascinating engineering issues buried inside this wrapper of so called insults.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[muel]

 

The answer is, it doesn't. There is no inherent advantage of a constant impedance design over a conventional design. Like I said, it works, and the steep slope designs definitely offer some advantages if you listen absurdity loud or have a very big room. I believe the Universal has been ruined, but it's his to do with whatever he pleases.

 

Unfortunately, we now have only one side of that argument. Terms like "absurdly loud" and "big" are not scientific, and have no engineering meaning.

No one here now can refute the claim?

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

I think Al already said what he has to say.

I'm interested in the science too but in the end How Does It Sound to You??  You won't know for sure unless you compare for yourself.  Unless you find these crossovers used (where you could resell for no loss in $$) this is going to cost you in the end but at least you should feel pretty comfortable where you wind up.

 

Dean's description of the extreme slopes is very accurate in my opinion.  If I am listening loud all the time that is what I would have.  I can't listen that loud most of the time and shouldn't anyway.  It's interesting to me that my preference seems to be headed back towards more original Klipsch designs with premium caps even though that is not where I started.  

[Chief bonehead]

 

The answer is, it doesn't. There is no inherent advantage of a constant impedance design over a conventional design. Like I said, it works, and the steep slope designs definitely offer some advantages if you listen absurdity loud or have a very big room. I believe the Universal has been ruined, but it's his to do with whatever he pleases.

 

Unfortunately, we now have only one side of that argument. Terms like "absurdly loud" and "big" are not scientific, and have no engineering meaning.

No one here now can refute the claim?

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

and whose fault is that?

[Marvel]

JS, the steep slope crossovers reauire a fair amount of power before they really sound good. I use 3.5 watt amps. Ony a couple people on here ever said they were good with low power amps, and even Al admitted more powsr was needed.

I'm rarely over 90db. For those who listen at 100+ db seem to like them more.

Bruce

[jwc]

Heck since the topic is all over the place about networks,

 

Does Klipsch offer network upgrades on Khorns or La scala (1's).  Did I hear somebody say there is an AK-5 now on Khorns?  That would be the way to go if available unless you diverge into DIY such as changing out the Tweeters or Midrange.

[Wolfbane]

JS, the steep slope crossovers reauire a fair amount of power before they really sound good. I use 3.5 watt amps. Ony a couple people on here ever said they were good with low power amps, and even Al admitted more powsr was needed.

I'm rarely over 90db. For those who listen at 100+ db seem to like them more.

Bruce

 

I had an email exchange with Al on XO's a couple of years back when I replaced my Cornwall's with Belles. When I told him my power amp used 45 tubes and put out 2 WPC he told me to get rid of my amp and replace it with an amp with more horsepower.

 

I figured that response to mean that he designs and builds XO's for people who prefer to listen at loud volumes. I'd been there and done that with several amps I purchased years ago that put out up to 150 times my current preferred amp's rating.

 

With Klipsch speakers I can use a 15 -20 watt tube amp when I want to Rock n Roll at high volume. That also requires the prerequisite of the women around here being at least a block away before I hit the play button. 

 

I believe Al designs and makes an excellent product but such product was no longer a match to my current listening habits. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Wolfbane

[Jim Naseum]

 

 

The answer is, it doesn't. There is no inherent advantage of a constant impedance design over a conventional design. Like I said, it works, and the steep slope designs definitely offer some advantages if you listen absurdity loud or have a very big room. I believe the Universal has been ruined, but it's his to do with whatever he pleases.

 

Unfortunately, we now have only one side of that argument. Terms like "absurdly loud" and "big" are not scientific, and have no engineering meaning.

No one here now can refute the claim?

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

I think Al already said what he has to say.

I'm interested in the science too but in the end How Does It Sound to You??  You won't know for sure unless you compare for yourself.  Unless you find these crossovers used (where you could resell for no loss in $$) this is going to cost you in the end but at least you should feel pretty comfortable where you wind up.

 

Dean's description of the extreme slopes is very accurate in my opinion.  If I am listening loud all the time that is what I would have.  I can't listen that loud most of the time and shouldn't anyway.  It's interesting to me that my preference seems to be headed back towards more original Klipsch designs with premium caps even though that is not where I started.  

 

 

I wasn't interested in what ALK had to say because I already know he is banned. I was interested in the statement as it was made above. Yes, sure a person can spend thousands trying everything under the sun. I know I'm probably unique in this respect, but I like to know the objective data of A and B and C before placing a bet. I'm not loaded, and I am a cheapskate. So, if A has 10% distortion and B has 2% distortion (as a metaphorical example of objective data), I might hone in on B before A.  If there is no objective data on this, so be it. But, I think there is. Distortion? Phase? I would naively assume, for instance, that the tweeter in any system would benefit greatly from a steep filter because distortion would go down and heat would go down. I'm pretty sure such a thing would be trivial to measure for a sound engineer? No offense was intended to anyone.

 

EDIT: There was also the question of constant impedance. It's my understanding that there is no free lunch here. That to get constant impedance, you must give up something else. I think it's power dissipation, but I am not sure. Again, it looks like a simple objective measure would answer it. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by jo56steph74

[Mallette]

"""Bob Crites.  Bob, as usual, wins 1st place in the Civil Department. Even when he doesn't post stuff.""" 

 

That has been shown time and time again.   Bought a network from him a few years ago that isn't available from Klipsch and bought some of his woofers recently.  Star business.

Whether business or other matters we have discussed having NOTHING to do with audio, Bob's posts are:

 

1. Rare

2. Short

3. On Topic

4. Civil

5. Devastating, especially to ego trips on testosterone highs.

 

Dave

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Mallette